Here's the thing. I started reading Heinlein in roughly 1974. There was no Elizabeth Moon, C.J. Cherryh, Tamora Pierce. There were very, very few female agents: most of the females in SF novels were good-conduct prizes. (A laudable exception was Andre Norton.)

Look at Glory Road, published in 1963. The heroine, Star, is a competent fighter. She turns out to be the Empress of the Universe, and this doesn't involve sitting around half-naked on thrones. She's making difficult political decisions, and it's a more-than-full-time job. She has a broad sex life and she enjoys it. The hero eventually realizes that she doesn't have time for both the job and him. That's pretty damned powerful and advanced for 1963. That's worlds beyond what Asimov, for instance, was doing.

Today, in 2004, I look at Heinlein women with despair and disdain. I can't live up to that model. (I mean, wanting sex in the cab on the way to give birth? As IF.) Heinlein's views on women were genuinely advanced in the 1950s; the society moved on past him, and thank Heaven for that. But there's more to Heinlein than the caricature of himself he became after the stroke. I don't think he wrote a good book after I Will Fear No Evil. I think the books he wrote in his prime have dated badly. But I also think that they set a generation of children to thinking about spaceflight; over the years, many astronauts and rocket scientists came up to Heinlein and thanked him.

I completely respect people who have tried Heinlein and disliked him. But he was important to me in my teens, and I'll always respect him and love him for that.

Well, yeah. Friday was kind of precious to me as having a strong fighty female lead who also enjoyed sex. The sex stuff looks kind of ooky from my angle now, cause I've read better since then. But it was worthwhile at the time. Also, Job was kinda fun.

(I mean, wanting sex in the cab on the way to give birth? As IF.)

Ha ha ha! Really? Every day and in many ways, Heinlein feels more and more like a stereotypical fanfic writer to me. Except he wrote fanfic about the world, instead of a TV show. Which, come to think, is sort of a comforting and entertaining thought.

I've got my fair share of [SF] authors I adored when I was 14 and find problematic now, and that's only 14 years' (and no major American cultural revolutions') difference. Partly, it's just growing up, but partly, it's learning to take any and all reference to alternate political structures with a grain of salt the size of Texas.

Betsy, are you well-read in Andre Norton? Could you recommend a few titles?

Damn! That reminds me that somewhere in my apartment there's an ancient copy of Moon of Three Rings that I never got around to reading. Must add more hours to day, stat.

Every day and in many ways, Heinlein feels more and more like a stereotypical fanfic writer to me.

Everything makes sense, now. If we replace Wyoh and Manny with Justin and JC, it all makes perfect sense.

Betsy, it's odd. I feel the same way about Princess Leia. Born in '73, was I. She was the first female asskicker I ever knew, and as an added bonus, was all smoochie with Han Solo. HAN SOLO.

Nutty, Moon of Three Rings is an excellent choice. I remember liking the Witch World books, but I haven't tried rereading them. I loved all the YAs with "magic" in the title -- Lavender-Green Magic stands out. She's been sharecropping since the mid-1980s, so I'd recommend sticking to her earlier stuff.

Betsy, it's odd. I feel the same way about Princess Leia. Born in '73, was I. She was the first female asskicker I ever knew, and as an added bonus, was all smoochie with Han Solo. HAN SOLO.

Well, for me there was Wonder Woman and the Bionic Woman (on TV) before Leia. But they were kinda' lame. It must have been the utter lack of snark.

I remember I was dissapointed that Leia had to be Jaba's bikini-clad harem girl in Return of the Jedi.

I remember I was dissapointed that Leia had to be Jaba's bikini-clad harem girl in Return of the Jedi.

Oh, I was pleased. Because she subverted the whole thing and strangled Jabba with his own chain. Go Leia.

The heroines of the two Raiders sequels, though? Pfui. Give me Marian any day.

Oh, I was pleased. Because she subverted the whole thing and strangled Jabba with his own chain. Go Leia.

Also, hot.

t /shallow

wonders who he's kidding - that tag never closes

Give me Marian any day.

I loved how she could drink a guy much larger than her under the table, and then be completely sober five minutes later.