Mal ,'War Stories'
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In baseball terms, this argument is summed up as Peak Value vs. Career Value when discussing Greatest Player Ever. And I think it's a useful distinction here. Peak Value, Firefly was (to my mind) as good as BtVS S3 (my gold standard). Career value? It didn't last as long to cover the kind of territory Lyra alludes to.
Hmmm. I don't know about "best episode ever". I usually have a bunch of episodes that impressed the hell out of me out of each show, but it's difficult to compare superior episodes on the merits alone. I mean, if someone told me to choose the "best" among "Innocence", "Becoming", "The Wish", "Hush" "Restless", "Once More With Feeling" for example, I'll be hard-pressed to choose one. Now, if someone asked me which one is my favorite, I'd probably say "Restless", which has as much to do with me as the skills with which the episodes have been crafted.
I adore Firefly and I mourn it deeply, but... eh. Different things ping for different people. I'm one of the people who didn't really "get" Wonderfalls-- not that it didn't entertain me in bits, but it didn't fire me up with "OMG! My show!"-type of recognition. Obviously, there are bound to be people for whom it's the other way around.
I adore Firefly and I mourn it deeply, but... eh. Different things ping for different people. I'm one of the people who didn't really "get" Wonderfalls-- not that it didn't entertain me in bits, but it didn't fire me up with "OMG! My show!"-type of recognition. Obviously, there are bound to be people for whom it's the other way around.I think I'm one, although I had no idea my Firefly love was so shallow, when it was on the air. I thought I was a true lover. Turns out I was fickle.
Standard Ple Avert Your Eyes WarningWhen Natter was all pimp cup talk, penis talk, and penis-in-pimp-cup talk yesterday, I decided I was not going to feel badly mentioning baseball, again. Not that Plei was talking about any of these things (as far as I recall, anyhow)--just that I had a clear moment of "Okay, this is getting to be not-so-much-for-me" and scrolled by, and then realized I didn't have to be self-conscious about the baseball talk.
In baseball terms, this argument is summed up as Peak Value vs. Career Value when discussing Greatest Player Ever. And I think it's a useful distinction here. Peak Value, Firefly was (to my mind) as good as BtVS S3 (my gold standard). Career value? It didn't last as long to cover the kind of territory Lyra alludes to.
I think what you and Lyra say covers some of what I meant, when I mentioned I can't compare a 13 episode series to a 144 episode series. And now reading this, I realize also though, that I just didn't think any of Firefly at its best was as pleasing to me (although it was pleasing) as BtVS and Angel at their best, and that Firefly's best, for me, doesn't have the same sort of staying power. For me, Firefly is that guy I went on a handful of dates with. We had a great time, and he really made my knees weak. When he stopped calling, I was broken hearted for about a week. Two years down the line, I realize I never think about him at all, until someone else brings him up.
As Hec says, there are different ways of judging the shows: best career is, for me, Buffy; best peak value, on the other hand, might easily go to Firefly. Sub-categories are required: best episode (I think Out Of Gas and Hush are the top two-- but which is better?) and best season (Buffy s2 is probably actually my winner, but can we compare Buffy s1 with Firefly's entire run, because then they're more equal in length terms? and what do we prize in a season anyway? arcs or brilliant episodes?) at least.
And what do we prize in a show, anyway? Character arcs or story arcs? The witty, the angsty, the good-looking (in actors or cinematography), the mixture?
t /questions
Two years down the line, I realize I never think about him at all, until someone else brings him up.
Whereas I'm still harbouring deep, black, terrible anger-- partly because, unlike Buffy (whose calls tailed off in quality before they stopped coming) or Angel (whose calls came to a satisfying end), Firefly's calls were stopped by an alien power, not Firefly himself.
ETA: the thing about Angel's calls didn't sound as porny in my head.
I'm the opposite of Cindy. I liked Firefly well enough when it aired, though I was dubious after my first viewing of The Train Job. I was just starting to think, "Yes, I'd love this show even if I didn't know it was a Joss thing," right as it got canceled. And I fell in love with it and developed a mad Mal-crush from the DVDs.
realized I didn't have to be self-conscious about the baseball talk
Oh yeah, way past ya, Cindy. I have a teeny bit of sensibility for Topicky threads but Buffistahood is about cavalierly posting shit that has no business being anywhere, especially in Natter or Bitches.
Firefly is the best show ever, and Out of Gas is the best episode of any series. Can others disagree with me and not feel the Firefly love? Certainly. And I'll feel much pity for their poor, misguided, tv-watching souls.
Whatev, with hand-gesture. I love FF, particularly OoG and plenty of A:TS, but it is S2/3 BtVS for me.
The discussion painfully illustrates that we need more JossTV asap.
To be fair, my "eh" was because I just don't think FF is all that, which is why I don't think it has a high batting average (but in cricket).
Did you even watch the whole show? You cannot be "eh" about "War Stories" or "Out of Gas" or "Objects In Space."
I did, in fact, watch the whole show (not the unaired ones on the DVDs, because why would I buy DVDs of a show I didn't like), including "War Stories," "Out of Gas," and "Objects In Space." (What I got from those episodes, essentially, was very, very tense.)
Don't tell me what I can't do.
I was telling Teppy what to do.
Of the two of us, which one is the boss of me? t /S3 Willow
but can we compare Buffy s1 with Firefly's entire run, because then they're more equal in length terms? and what do we prize in a season anyway? arcs or brilliant episodes?) at least.Firefly's acting was much more fine tuned out of the gate than was BtVS's. I suspect the writing was too, although both shows lose points with me there for their first 13 episodes. For Firefly, the random Chinese slang bugged me, as did the "gorram" sort of slang, and it bugged me in the same self-consciously-trying-too-hard way BtVS S1's Teenage So-Calese slang bugged, at the beginning of BtVS S1. I find the BtVS characters more compelling. I didn't know a lot about the Firefly characters, and it seemed like the game was to make me learn it slowly. In retrospect, I find that off-putting, but don't recall how I felt about it at the time. A slow reveal is nice, but if I don't care what happens to the characters (I'm still in this place, wrt "Lost"), my love isn't going to last.
Angel's first 13 episodes may have been better than either BtVS's or Firefly's. Granted, Angel had a home field advantage so to speak, as both the main character, and one of the two sidekicks, were well established. In other words, I cared about both Cordy and Angel going in. But Angel made me care enough about Doyle in X episodes, to care when he was killed off. I expected not to be happy about Wes joining the crew. Boy, was I wrong, there.
For Firefly, the random Chinese slang bugged me, as did the "gorram" sort of slang, and it bugged me in the same self-consciously-trying-too-hard way BtVS S1's Teenage So-Calese slang bugged, at the beginning of BtVS S1.
Oh, HELL yes. This. So so SO much.