Zoe ,'The Train Job'
[NAFDA] This is where we talk about the show! Anything that's aired in the US (including promos) is fair game. No spoilers though -- if you post one by accident, an admin will delete it.
I think I said something like this at the very end of the last Firefly thread, but for me, Angel was my favorite ME show, even though my favorite individual ME episodes were from Buffy and Firefly.
I think it just boils down to the fact that watching the Angel characters was more interesting to me.
Unsuprsingly, I'm with ita and others in the St. Cordelia crap being a betrayal.
Teppy is me on this episode. The Wes/Illyria/Burkle part of the ep was perfect and heartbreaking, and the Italian stuff made me laugh a lot. It wouldn't have been nearly as problematical if they'd moved that portion of the episode to earlier in the season somewhere. Granted, I have my own rationalization for the characterization issues other people had, so YMMV.Yes, except I didn't like Buffy's objectification, particularly since it was the last of her in the 'verse, at least for a while.
including four astonishing five-star episodes: “A Hole in the World” (Fred bids Wes goodbye), Underneath (Hamilton, the new Wolfram & Hart liaison, arrives).
I have no memory of "Underneath." What else happens in it?
TPTB may have known how they wanted the series to end (and let's face it, it's a powerful image) and had to rush things when cancellation was announced midseason.
I suspect this was the case, but I can think of other ways to get there that wouldn't have felt as out-of-nowhere. (E.g., Ilyria attempts to regain her former power, looseing the army of demons intentionally or accidentally.)
I have my own rationalization for the characterization issues other people had, so YMMV.
I saw it as being like "The Zeppo" -- the narrator(s) are unrelliable, so the characterization is tilted.
If I didn't see it that way, the whole thing would be irredeemable.
I have no memory of "Underneath." What else happens in it?
That was the one where Angel saved Lindsey from the Hell of Being Happily Married and Gunn got left behind in his stead.
I was at least happy that in Season 5 they seemed to learn from prior mistakes and deal with the romances in a palatable manner. The snipets of Wesley/Fred that we got seemed earned to me in contrast to the Season 3 and 4 versions, Angel/Nina had a nice casual vibe that worked well, and the only obviously zero chemistry pairing (Eve/Lindsey) read to me as intentionally so.
the narrator(s) are unrelliable, so the characterization is tilted.
I objected most to the characterisation of the narrator(s), so it didn't help me.
If we're picking between the Buffyverse shows, I pick Angel.
But if Firefly gets included, I get confused.
Angel saved Lindsey from the Hell of Being Happily Married
You have a novel definition of "happily married".
Hence the Hell. But the family life was all seemingly schmoopy and upbeat - the torment came from the big demony guy in the basement. Mrs. McDonald didn't crack out the tommygun until they grabbed the necklace.
Personally I think it would have been more entertaining to have Lindsey regain his memories and then plead with them to take him away from the horror of endless sunny picnics and PTA meetings.
I can't choose! I think my heart will always be with Buffy, but S5 of Angel was, for me, so spectacular that it will be hard to ever say it wasn't as good as Buffy.
I DID feel that Faith was as much a part of ANGEL as she was a part of BUFFY
By the end, I felt more like Faith was an Angel character. She did more on Buffy, but I feel the real revelations into her character all happened in L.A. I knew more about her after one ep of Angel that I did after a whole season on Buffy.
Yeah, talking about it makes me miss it all again.
I saw it as being like "The Zeppo" -- the narrator(s) are unrelliable, so the characterization is tilted.
This would be my primary rationalization, which would completely take care of the Buffy objectification (and Andrew's repudiation thereof). As for ita's objection, I just thought the flashbacks were from one of the narrator's unreliable points of view. Clarifying whether it was one or the other, I do admit, would have helped immensely. Because I can totally see Spike as remembering Angelus the way he acted in that episode. Since it was from him that we got the lovely "Ciao!" moment, I'll go with it. But, admitedly, show not called SPIKE.
Oh, and if it's best ME show overall? I have to go with FIREFLY.
But it's not fair given it barely got a tenth of the airtime that ANGEL did. I certainly think it was the strongest ME show out of the box. Whether that would have lasted is a question we'll never know the answer to (unless the movie is HUGE).