Mal: You tell me right now, little Kaylee, you really think you can do this? Kaylee: Sure. Yeah. I think so. 'Sides, if I mess up, not like you'll be able to yell at me.

'Bushwhacked'


Angel 5: Is That It? Am I Done?  

[NAFDA] This is where we talk about the show! Anything that's aired in the US (including promos) is fair game. No spoilers though -- if you post one by accident, an admin will delete it.


Topic!Cindy - May 14, 2004 11:58:11 am PDT #226 of 3531
What is even happening?

I do feel like they could have done a lot more with Lorne and Harmony, since they're the soul-less good guys

I can't equate Harmony with Lorne. Harmony is like Chipped!Spike. She is on a dry drunk. She has some sort of motive for not killing (it's never been clear why she'd want a job when she could just be killing--I think this is one place where the mythology has really started to fall apart).


§ ita § - May 14, 2004 11:59:09 am PDT #227 of 3531
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.

The more she can feel like an active force for good, and that she can derive some self worth from that, the less likely she'd be to feed on humans- though I do think she'd probably sneak human blood from other sources like blood banks every now and then.

You give her more credit than I think she's due. Everyone in W&H who's not the MoG who's doing less evil now than before? I wager they're doing it because they get a nice job with room for promotion. No change in self-worth, or anything. And if the rules became slacker, they'd go right back -- just like a dress code.


§ ita § - May 14, 2004 11:59:46 am PDT #228 of 3531
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.

it's never been clear why she'd want a job when she could just be killing--I think this is one place where the mythology has really started to fall apart

Because she's a follower, and this is more fun than the cult, and Angel's cute?


Jessica - May 14, 2004 12:02:06 pm PDT #229 of 3531
And then Ortus came and said "It's Ortin' time" and they all Orted off into the sunset

(it's never been clear why she'd want a job when she could just be killing--I think this is one place where the mythology has really started to fall apart).

Harmony's miserable when she's not part of a clique, and this is the closest she's been able to come since being vamped. Having minions didn't work, joining a cult didn't work, so why not try a corporation?


Wolfram - May 14, 2004 12:02:18 pm PDT #230 of 3531
Visilurking

I can't equate Harmony with Lorne. Harmony is like Chipped!Spike. She is on a dry drunk. She has some sort of motive for not killing (it's never been clear why she'd want a job when she could just be killing--I think this is one place where the mythology has really started to fall apart).

I think it's consistent with the mythology. Presoul!Spike was evil but he also had this persistent human habit of following his heart and falling in love. Harmony's humanity that she couldn't shake was her incessant need to fit in and belong. We saw a little of this in Disharmony, and finally she was willing to stop behaving evil to be a part of the MoG. But like ita said, it's only as long as there's supervision. If she could get away with it she'd have no compunctions.

triple x-post of course


Madrigal Costello - May 14, 2004 12:02:46 pm PDT #231 of 3531
It's a remora, dimwit.

I would compare Harmony with a chippedSpike - though he was actually still capable of open evil, he just couldn't be violent. But he curbed that out of love for Buffy, and I think a desire to have a group again. He'd lost Dru and Angel and Darla, and he tried to make something work with Harmony, but she was too annoying. Harmony when she was first seen in LA was suffering from loneliness. I think a good chunk of her motivation for good right now is fear of social ostracism - it's not that Angel would stake her, but that she wouldn't have anyone to talk to anymore. If the MoG all died in the next week, I think she might go back to killing - just like Spike, and previously Angel, she needs people to be good for.


§ ita § - May 14, 2004 12:05:04 pm PDT #232 of 3531
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.

Who did Angel need to be good for? Didn't he stop being evil pretty sharpish?

I know Buffy affected him, but I think she catalysed him, not that he needed her around anymore, except in the wuv4eva way. And see how that turned out.


Topic!Cindy - May 14, 2004 12:07:28 pm PDT #233 of 3531
What is even happening?

Because she's a follower, and this is more fun than the cult, and Angel's cute?

and

Harmony's miserable when she's not part of a clique, and this is the closest she's been able to come since being vamped. Having minions didn't work, joining a cult didn't work, so why not try a corporation?

It was set up, I guess. I just can't buy how it started.

Presoul!Spike was evil but he also had this persistent human habit of following his heart and falling in love.

With Spike, he was physically prevented from sating his bloodlust, so something else started motivating his actions. I just don't buy the social pressure angle. I wish they didn't do the blood test thingie at the beginning of the season. I would have rather thought Harm was sneaking humans when nobody was looking, and have been mad at the MoG for being too compromised to think it through.

That said, I've just handwaved it this season, because I have enjoyed Harmony.


Topic!Cindy - May 14, 2004 12:08:54 pm PDT #234 of 3531
What is even happening?

Who did Angel need to be good for? Didn't he stop being evil pretty sharpish?

Wasn't that Doyle's premise for getting Angel to accept assignments from the PTB via the visions?


Wolfram - May 14, 2004 12:12:04 pm PDT #235 of 3531
Visilurking

With Spike, he was physically prevented from sating his bloodlust, so something else started motivating his actions.

Spike's lovey-doveyness was present long before the chip. Didn't the Judge tell him it made him stink of humanity or something? So vampires can have human traits that interfere with their evil vampire natures. Some have more than others. Even Holden had a human need to play head doctor, before his vampire nature overtook it.