I think he was telling Lindsay what he wanted to hear, to get him to do what was needed. Lindsay mentioned a few times about being 'part of the team' and it feeling good (did he?). I got the impression Angel used and tossed him like tissue paper.

Right. I meant the line to Eve about Lindsay never coming back would make no sense, if Angel wasn't lying to Lindsay and actually intended to see him at the head of W&H.

Secondly, Illyria did not hit on Gunn.

I know that I made a "Illyria-hit-on-Gunn" comment during watch N post. I. was. kidding.

Thought the show ended perfectly, and it is of absolutely zero importance if they won or lost the fight. It was, however, of absolute importance that they went out fighting.

That's the point.

Finally to the end of the thread, so now you get a bunch of kinda random impressions from me:

I liked the ending, and it felt very fitting.

I think Angel's "last job" for Lorne was shooting Lindsey. Also, Lindsey's dying words being "Angel ..." made me giggle. Lorne is going to go off someplace and quietly drink himself to death, because he will never be able to reconcile his shooting Lindsey with who he thought he was.

Poor Wes! I was spoiled for his death, but it still made me teary-eyed. Wes asking Illyria to finally lie to him was a nice call-back to Buffy asking Giles to lie to her in "Lie to Me". (And since I'm a big ol' sap, I am sitting here getting choked up over the notion that Illyria, having survived the Big End Battle, will go back to Wes' apartment, open a box, and spend a few minutes looking at Feigenbaum the bunny, with that expression of "I am feeling grief and nostalgia, and I don't think I like it" going across her face.)

I'm actually glad Angel didn't stake Harmony, but had the foresight to write her a letter of recommendation. I would have been even happier if somehow Harmony had gotten a soul and ended up Shanshu-ing, but that's been my cherished delusion for a while now.

Yeah, I'm completely unconvinced that Angel has given up the chance of shanshu. When has messing with a prophecy been successful on this show? Ever?

S'true -- we were just talking about it with Connor and Sahjahn a few weeks ago.

Yeah, I'm completely unconvinced that Angel has given up the chance of shanshu. When has messing with a prophecy been successful on this show? Ever?

Me, too. But I'm also pretty convinced he willingly surrendered it (or thought he did) and that's all that matters to me, in a finale like Not Fade Away. This was about growth, and acceptance (included in this is the idea of compromise), and accomplishment, and mission.

I love that they were all corrupted by W&H, and yet, they actually did succeed in their mission--they succeeded because they decided to take the offer, to get at W&H from the inside, and it worked. They killed their chief earthy officers, at great cost to themselves.

I am so very satisfied with the story this told. And it all reminds me of Micole and Katie's conversation from last week (source of current tag) that Katie summed up, saying:

Angel says to me that there can be grace even in darkness; Buffy says to me that that you can get a damn generator and turn the lights on.

Poor Wes! I was spoiled for his death, but it still made me teary-eyed

Just did the re-watch on my lunch, and its the "Yes. Thank you, yes." that really killed me.

And you are actually right that the mind can right any number of endings:

You want Angel and surviving mogs to win: How about these - all stemming from cannon?

1) Illyria, who canonically is familiar with W&H from old days knows a special weakness that lets them be defeated. (From the scene with Hamilton, we can wank that all W&H super-minions get their powert this way - does not have to be so, but not implasible).

2) speaking of which - drinking W&H minon blood not only gives you w&h power its cumlative - the more you drink , the stronger you get - which means that Spike and Angel end fight this battle like a poor mans Elric - absorbing their enemies power and growing stronger the longer they fight. (For those not familiar with Moorcock - Elric was a swords and socery anti-hero - as much or more evil than good who drank the souls of his enemies through his cursed Rune sword. I'd call him the ultimate S&S anti-hero, but then some one would bring up Kane.

3) And speaking of Moorcock - we could have an early Moorcock type solution; W&H by invading has upset a cosmic balance - allowing TPTB to intervene directly.

4) Someone upthread metioned the possiblity of rescue by an army of potentials.

I'm not arguing that any of these would happen - just showing how open ended a finale this really was. Just cause they all believe they are about to die does not mean some or all don't survive.

t x-post with Wolfram on Cosmic Balance thing.

Am I the only one who interpreted "You won't last ten minutes" as a reference to his ability to fight while wounded, rather than "in ten minutes your wounds will kill you"? Because it seemed to be a "Stay out of this one, you're too hurt to fight" sort of thing. I mean, if he's going to bleed to death in ten minutes anyway, why would she be discouraging him from fighting? So I don't see Gunn as being guarranteed to die (no more than the rest of them are), though his chances are definitely smaller being the only human and already wounded.

That does actually almost get us to Fray.

Yeah, it does. Evil gets it's ass kicked, the Slayers are no longer needed because of it and their power fades/Willow's spell only affected to the current generation of Slayers/[insert wank here] and X-number of decades pass. Enter Fray-verse.

Right. I meant the line to Eve about Lindsay never coming back would make no sense, if Angel wasn't lying to Lindsay and actually intended to see him at the head of W&H.

Oh, that line. I think we're on the same page anyway.