Toughed By An Angel the first time -- much more fun, much more leather

Mmmm, Angel.

Taking a moment to deal with the fact that my TV is going to soon bereft of so much salty goodness. And, I'm done.

I may be behind on my White People Studies, but what religion has the talking tchotchkes?

I was offering an option within the 'verse, because I unsure whether you meant religion(s) of white people in reality, or within the Wonderfalls 'verse (not that the tchotchkes constitute a religion, but they constitute or represent a mystical force).

(I'm afraid I still might not be grasping your point, but I'm going to wait and reread when the kids are at school.)

but the main mystical person always in focus (or at least the mystically affected person) is a white woman

She doesn't get mystical until episode 11. Supernatural, yes, but not mystical.

Hence my parenthetical "mystically affected person" comment. Which episode is 11? How does she get mystical?

In entertainment in general, I do see a lot of mystical white people, and they're almost always Celtic. Which, as a decidedly non-mystical white-ass chick of Scottish descent, I will freely own pissed my shit off but good for a while.

MacSister.

However, per capita, I think Indians have the league locked down.

Yes, and Indians have the mystic role locked down in those genres which bother to portray them at all. The problem seems to me to be more that they're overwhelmingly portrayed as mystics. They are seldom--if ever--shown in a variety of roles, such that their roles show them in the full range of human experience. Stereotyping objectifies--it dehumanizes.

Specific to this episode of Wonderfalls though, does having an Indian mystic rise to the level of stereotyping? Should we take into account that the first tribal Seer was contacting Jaye (thus somehow placing them both within the sphere of influence of the same mystical forces, and so portraying this force as something that's neither exclusively belonging to either the Indians or the Anglos)? Is the stereotype subverted at all here, in that we also had an accountant, a merchant, and a lawyer?

I don't consider psychic mystical in the least.

What is the difference between a Psychic and a Seer?

Do you think it's because we're always drunk?

Great. Now I have to clean this Irish coffee off of my monitor.

Which episode is 11?

Totem Mole.

Is the stereotype subverted at all here, in that we also had an accountant, a merchant, and a lawyer?

Since the lawyer's the religious person they were seeking and the accountant wants to be/is resisting being religious, and the merchant is all about finding a religious person, no, NSM.

I'm diving for some term clarification -- what's happening with the Satsuma Indians is a religious thing. What's happening with Jaye is undefined -- by the end of Totem Mole, by association, it is at least recognised by a religion, and deemed positive.

Cindy, Indians are in the episode to have their religion manifested. That's the be all and end all of that. Putting in couple rocket scientists wouldn't really balance that out. The treatment of it, however, can, might have, but fell short in my eyes.

Since the lawyer's the religious person they were seeking and the accountant wants to be/is resisting being religious, and the merchant is all about finding a religious person, no, NSM.

I think this is where I missed it the first time. I'd really like to see the episode. I do understand the points, and want to make clear that I don't think anyone is being delusional or overly-sensitive. To the contrary, I am having a huge attack of conscience for missing stuff, particularly since when I first saw that it involved Indians, I knew it was a potential problem. That's why I asked the questions yesterday about cutting slack to writers who we know (at least by reputation). I am trying to figure out why I didn't cringe--where there's a potential blindness on my part. I don't mean to come across as if I am asking anyone who cringed to justify their cringes. I don't want to be the big, insensitive oaf. I just wanted to understand the cringes (if that makes any sense).

I'm thinking I read it backwards. What I mean is, instead of the lawyer's the religious person they were seeking, I read the mystic they were seeking is a lawyer. Instead of the accountant wants to be/is resisting being religious, I read the guy who is assumed to be a mystic because of his lineage, is simply an accountant. I failed to take the shopkeeper's desire into account, at all.

I'm diving for some term clarification -- what's happening with the Satsuma Indians is a religious thing. What's happening with Jaye is undefined

Thank you, ita. This is another place where I missed it, in that I mentally lumped it all together as mystic. But you're right, because this has to do with the Satsuma's whole world view, whereas for Jaye, this is just "new, freaky thing."

The treatment of it, however, can, might have, but fell short in my eyes.

One thing that did make me cringe (that's overstated, but it disappointed me a little) while reading, was that it was the female, not the male, who ended up being the mystic. I didn't really want to bring up the whole closer-to-the-earth thing yesterday, though. Besides, it cracked me up that the lawyer was the mystic.

When I talked (argued? scrapped?) with Tim about it, he said that it was based on a tribe in which the people had a Holy Woman, and that the skills were passed down woman to woman (which is why Bill couldn't be The Guy...but then, why did they all expect that he would by the Guy?).

Tim said upthread that he thought the episode accomplished what he wanted it to accomplish, and those pieces are there, most notably when Jaye and Bill are having the "why are you hitting yourself, Jaye?" universe conversation. Bill wanting to be special so bad, Jaye not wanting to be special, the person who doesn't think about being special getting to be special, Majandra denied the thing she wants, the mirroring of Jaye/Aaron to Jaye/Bill, Littlefoot surrendering to destiny...there's a lot of things going on, but it's muddy and clunky.

There's this opportunity to turn the trope on its ear and treat it with some irony in the compare and contrast to Jaye/Aaron.

And it almost accomplished that when the "closer to the earth" mysticism wasn't about living in poverty and asking the wind for advice on pottery making, but about giving the tribe financial power and independence.

It was just lost in the din.

Weird double post.

I am having a huge attack of conscience for missing stuff

But isn't the problem with the episode is that it uses racial/cultural stereotype? And if you missed the stereotyping then the episode would appear to not re-enforece these ideas very strongly.

What I mean is, if you needed to have these things pointed out to you then they could'nt've come across very strongly in the first place.

For me the reason for being upset by a racial/cultural stereotype is because it perpetuates these myths. But if Cindy failed to see the stereotyping, then the myth wasn't perpetuated.

That really isn't very clear. And I'm at work so don't have time to make it clearer. Feel free to ignore. Half formed thoughts are nobody's friend.

On reflection. Just because not many got it, doesn't mean it wasn't there. So ignore the last post and go about your business. Thank you.

Wow, UTTAD, that's an interesting and new twist on being called oversensitive. As much as I love Cindy, I"m not sure I want anyone one person's perception to be the arbiter on what my be a culturally sensitive ish or not.

That really isn't very clear. And I'm at work so don't have time to make it clearer. Feel free to ignore. Half formed thoughts are nobody's friend.

Eeek. If we make that the standard, I'll never post again. I mean, I know I should engage the brain before speaking, but a lot of times, I have to talk my way through the thinking process.

For me the reason for being upset by a racial/cultural stereotype is because it perpetuates these myths. But if Cindy failed to see the stereotyping, then the myth wasn't perpetuated.

But I'm no gold standard for anything, even sensitivity. Since it seems to have been perpetuated for more people involved in this conversation than not (at least until now), I'm not filled with any confidence that the stereotyping wasn't present-and-unsubverted.

It's as likely that I missed it because I missed it, as that it wasn't there. In fact, I think it's safer to assume I missed it, than that three very different people (whom I haven't pegged as always agreeing on developments in any of our pet series, in general, and whom I always read as more informed on literary themes than I am) all saw something that wasn't there. For ita, Allyson, Kat (and anyone else who cringed), it was certainly perpetuated.

Of course, trying to validate either my initial interpretation, and/or say Allyson's interpretation this sort of too easily summarizes the whole thing, because art evokes. And really, we're very much reading subtext. Trope doesn't equal stereotype, but certain tropes seem to come with the stereotype as sort of a gift with purchase.

When I talked (argued? scrapped?) with Tim about it, he said that it was based on a tribe in which the people had a Holy Woman, and that the skills were passed down woman to woman (which is why Bill couldn't be The Guy...but then, why did they all expect that he would by the Guy?).

Hmmmm. What's that all about, Tim? If that's the backstory (and I don't remember reading that in the script, so if it wasn't said in the episode, is it just backstory), was it also usually passed on within one family? If so, then was Dianne also a grandchild of the deceased seer?

On reflection. Just because not many got it, doesn't mean it wasn't there. So ignore the last post and go about your business. Thank you.

Heh, too much xposting, and I'm too late to ignore, but thank you for posting this.

As much as I love Cindy, I"m not sure I want anyone one person's perception to be the arbiter on what my be a culturally sensitive ish or not.

Oh, feeling Kat love, and nodding mightily, as I'm so not qualified, anyhow.