I think the thing that pinged me was that Dianne wasn't a good enough leader until she became mystical shaman woman. That seems sort of bullshitty to me.

Yes. I think it's probably a trope of which I just haven't been that aware.

Satsuma, Kat.

My first thoughts on this are: oranges! ita must be saying something along the lines of cereal. But that doesn't make sense. Then followed by is this like Namaste but different? Street name... HA!

Allyson, but around Niagra and Buffalo in general (and I'm supposing that it's close if Sharon goes to get cigs there that frequently), most groups are Iroquois Confederacy.

Oh, and there was also a peyote reference.

Tim reminded me that Jaye said something about the totem, and the totem said it was just there for the tourists.

Jaye did seem to think that the Northeast tribe would have a totem pole, but that's Jaye's ish.

It was the mystical indian trope, that bugged me.

Allyson did you ever watch Northern Exposure? If so, did it bug there, too? I'm starting to think I have given too much credit to WF (and NE) (also ashamedly and admittedly, it's not a trope I've spent time thinking about before now). I think cut some writers/shows too much trope-slack.

I thought it was several months back that the "Are you there Tim?" line debuted.

Yeah. There was, like, a sneak peek right around the start of the new year. We kinda fell in love at that point.

Cindy, I watched Northern Exposure periodically. I don't remember it bugging (or a ton about the show), but I think that's my faulty memory. In fact, I'm trying to remember if it was Marianne (was that her name) that was the closest to the mystic.

and really, she had other tropes going on (savvy nurse to a doctor who knows medicine but is othewise clueless).

In fact, I'm trying to remember if it was Marianne (was that her name) that was the closest to the mystic.

Gah, I can't even remember who Marianne was, Kat. Was she the main Native American female? (Might have been Marilyn, but I can't remember.) I do think the Native American woman was a mystic, but everyone on NE (to my memory) seemed to have mystical encounters, and I think a few people were prescient when it served the story. For characters, I mostly remember Ed, Ruth, Chris, Joel, Maggie, and that might be it. I remember (was it Holling...Holland?--the old guy married to the very pretty young blond woman).

My memory-impression of NE is that it was probably self-aware enough, that any tropes would have been used well. But now I'm all suspicious of myself and my blindness to this one. I wonder about the roots of this mystical trope. I wonder if it was originally developed with the intention of counter-acting the savage trope. It has that patronizing air about it, doesn't it?

I died when I got the Peter Pan (Walt Disney) video for my children, and the What-Makes-The-Red-Man-Red creature, that barely looked human came on the screen. Luckily Ben's 1st grade teacher taught via themes. Throughout the year, they had a Medieval theme, a theme on China, a Native American theme, and an Oceans and Islands theme (every lesson in any subject tied back into their theme). The Native one was fantastic, and he was very receptive to my explanation about what was wrong with Peter Pan's portrayal of "Indians." "No! Mommy. 'Native Americans' is the correct term.'"

Eck. It's too bad about this. One of my major buttons. (ref: edited blow-up at Out-fucking-idiots-Kast). But I'm reacting to reactions and not to first-hand materials, so...

Anyway, do we know who the actors of the Native American characters were?

I don't know about this Outkast thing. What happened, Liese?

Oh, they did a little number at the Grammy's where they opened up with the Navajo Beauty Way song, then went into their own piece, dressed in (green) very badly stereotypical "Indian" outfits with very badly stereotypical dance moves in front of a very badly stereotypical teepee set. It was ridiculous. Sent me into a blazing rage. And was clearly set-dressed and rehearsed in advance, so CBS (it was CBS, right?) knew about it and condoned it. Various tribal authorities complained about it mightily, but it had far less fallout than Janet's nipple shield.