IMHO, some of PJ's casting choices -- at least visually -- were influenced by Alan Lee's pre-extant pictures, which were already the gold standard in how the books looked. Getting Lee involved in the art direction was a master coup for the production.

some of PJ's casting choices -- at least visually

Which ones? I can see his influence all over the sets, and in some of the shot compositions, but I hadn't noticed much more.

(peering in)

Sorry to be off-topic here, but I'm at my wit's end and not knowing where else to put this.

KATHY ASTROM, I've been trying to reach you by email, no luck. Can you please email me? sf_deb@yahoo.com

Thanks.

I'm thinking particularly of his Sam & Frodo & Gollum pics.

Hi. I just skipped 400+ posts because a thought jumped into my brain as I was reading back to the Shelob discussion from Friday. I have no idea if these ideas have been mentioned or not, so I’m sorry if this is a rehash. (And if this should be white-fonted, please let me know.)

Pont 1: It seems to me that Tolkein is drawing upon the image, or rather the type, of Grendel’s Mother in the creation of Shelob. It has been forever since I last read Beowulf or any criticism of it, but as Tolkein was a Beowulf expert, it seems natural he would draw upon this very scary, threatening type of image when putting Frodo in danger. I don’t know what thoughts he had in regard to the gender of Grendel’s mother and how that stood as a representation of women. It’s possible that he just drew upon the scariest monster he could remember and remade it into his own monster.

Point 2: It was the quote that Plei mentioned above that really got me thinking, especially this line “but the belly underneath was pale and luminous and gave forth a stench.” This is almost a direct image from the beginning Dante’s Purgatorio , Canto 19, when the pilgrim dreams of the Siren. This woman (the Siren) appears to him as a deformed, ugly mess, but the more she speaks, the more he is attracted to her. When, in the dream, a mysterious woman calls to Vergil to stop her, Vergil rips off the Siren’s dress to reveal her ventre (usually translated as “belly”), which issues a foul stench that wakes the pilgrim from his dream. My master’s thesis was on this topic, and one of my arguments was that ventre was mistranslated as “belly” when “womb” is a more accurate translation to understanding the corrupt nature of the Siren and her sexuality. (It then went on to discussed the medical knowledge (or lack thereof) of the time and how that affected Dante’s view of women and sexuality. It was a thing.) I can’t imagine that Tolkein wasn’t extremely familiar with Dante.

So, I believe that Tolkein is certainly bringing some baggage to the depiction of Shelob, but what exactly the nature of the baggage is I can’t say. I can’t wait to read more of the discussion though.

Oh, and I saw the movie on Sunday. I didn’t bring enough tissue. I agree with everybody’s cry-points, and reading them makes me want to cry again. I can’t wait to see it again.

Cry moment for me:

Pippen singing.

I lost it.

I think it would've really helped

I went last night with a non-book reader and asked what, if anything, she was confused by and the ONLY thing she said was "I just don't get at all why Frodo had to leave for the Havens." I explained the pain and the hurt and the lingering burden, etc. and she still didn't get it. I am fine with the Scouring being left out (which I didn't think I would be) but this might have helped clear things up for her.

Interestingly she totally got from Faramir's "How you doin'" glance at Eowyn during the crowning ceremony that they were going to hook up. Thus disproving my theory that all non-book readers would be unsatisfied with Eowyn's ending as presented in the movie.

Ian just *is* Gandalf.

Wrody McWrodiger. Friend and I were talking about our favorite actors of the the three movies.

Friend: Viggo Mortenson would be my second choice but I just have to go with Ian.
Me: Who'd he play?
Friend: Come on. You're such a freak - Gandalf.
Me: Whatev. *Gandalf* played Gandalf and I'm sticking by that.

So, last night, I thought I was going to be A Big Girl and not bawl through the whole movie because (drum roll) I made it through Mippen parting without a tear! But...at least I could dissect my big cry points this time:

Tears started when Pippin finds Merry on the Pelennor Fields. Oh Merry just looks soooo beaten and Pippin is so worried. Meep.

Sam fighting the Orcs: "This is for Frodo. That is for The Shire. And this is for my Old Gaffer!"

Sam picking Frodo up to carry him up Mt. Doom. It's not the words - it's the physical act of him picking him up that breaks me.

And here is one that didn't really get me the first time, but damn did it hit me hard the second.

In front of the black gates, Aragorn turning around and facing the men, dead silence, and then "For Frodo." I sobbed.

I tried REALLY hard to keep it together after that but damnit, if the scene at the harbor didn't make me cry, too.

So, better than the first viewing, but I still need to get steeled up a bit in order to see it with my Dad without just losing it.

Also? I enjoyed it much more on the second viewing (even though I loved it on the first as well) but it did feel really long this time.

I really enjoyed just getting lost in the fricking unbelievable CGI stuff this time instead of watching it with a "Oh, I hope this doesn't look fake" kind of feeling.

tina, your penultimate crypoint is the single time my heartstrings were tugged by Aragorn. He looked so consummately exhausted and human.

I think we'll need a second viewing this weekend or even maybe Christmas day. I was in too much of a smart-ass mood when I saw it Sunday, didn't take it serious enough.

Same here ita - Aragorn doesn't tug for me the same.

I edited my post but it was all spoilery when I first posted - sorry.

eta: Gah! I am having whitefont issues - sorry!!