She was just nothing -- soft sighs and youthful but uncompelling pretty. (ita)

Yes. This. Even in the books, I preferred Eowyn, because she just has more substance as a character, and she kicks ass, and besides, I just love the Rohirrim. But as played in the movies Arwen annoyed me so much it was all I could do to not audibly chant "Dump the elf! Dump the elf!" everytime Aragorn had screen time with Eowyn.

was Liv at all elfy, other than sighing through every line, which was kind of her thing alone, since the rest could breathe just fine?) (ita again)

Yeah, what was WITH that weird breathy diction? Drove me crazy through all three movies.

His women, both weak and strong are idealizations. I simply don't think he was capable of ever going beyond that. (Cashmere)

t nods And while I do enjoy the books, this is enough to keep them from every being among my absolute favorites, because quality of characterization and how intimately acquainted I feel with whoever I'm rooting for are pretty much my top criteria for how I rank a book, and as a woman I have a certain instinctive preference for strong and believable female characters.

He does set up every woman as having a completely different mind than one might find in a man's body. I would have said he found women sort of vaguely mystifying, and sometimes in nice ways (Galadriel, Luthien). But, I guess, that sort of attitude doesn't say very much to me about Tolkien as a person/writer, as much as it does about his particular slice of English donnish 1940s culture. (Nutty)

Not sure I agree with this completely, based on comparison with Lewis. While Lewis's writings certainly show their share of sexism, his girls and women are (to me at least) human, three-dimensional characters, and he even has a slight bias toward writing from a female POV. That being said, I wouldn't by any means say that Tolkien was more sexist than Lewis, just that their strengths and weaknesses as writers, and probably as people too, were very different. (Of course, it's no secret that Lewis is one of those writers where I love what he got right so much that I'm willing to grant him near-infinite tolerance for what he got wrong (except for That Hideous Strength --I hated that book). Whereas with Tolkien I maintain more critical distance. And I'm fully aware that many people, and possibly most people in this thread, have the exact opposite reaction.)

as a woman I have a certain instinctive preference for strong and believable female characters.

Whatever gene this is, I'm missing it completely.

as a woman I have a certain instinctive preference for strong and believable female characters.

I don't think that's "as a woman" -- I think it's "as a Susan."

I have a preferenece for strong and believable characters, and tend to prefer it to average out 50/50 male/female, but that only has to be over the span of my consumption, not over any particular oeuvre or even storyteller.

Whatever gene this is, I'm missing it completely.

Well, I probably should've phrased it better, because I didn't mean to say it was a universal female trait, just that it's an area where it's influenced my tastes. I.e., I didn't mean "all women feel this way," but rather, "I'm almost certain the reason I feel this way is because I'm a woman." And I'm not saying it's a virtue, either--it's just a neutral fact of my tastes, sort of like preferring chocolate to vanilla and Dr Pepper to Coke.

Some quick things...that documntary says that both Arwen and Eowyn were orginally in the combat at Helm's Deep and having jealous moments between them. Gak!

GamerGeek moments included the horses bolting at the Paths of the Dead. My friend leaned over and said, "This is the point where the DM asks what equipment was on your horse, and what equipment you were carrying personally."

Raquel, as a game master, that is hands down my single favorite question ever.

In fact, I'm always exhorting my players to keep careful track of that, so that I already know what I'm taking away from them when I bolt the horses, or crash the drone car, or close a blast door between them and the equipment they came with.

Which documentary, Raquel?

And the idea of Arwen being jealous of Eowyn? So glad that didn't happen, much like the potentially EE Legolas drinking game -- but the latter I want to see because it looks funny, not because I think it has any part in the story.

Also, to clarify yet further, hopefully without putting my foot any deeper into my mouth, I do believe the inability to write three-dimensional women (or men--I've certainly encountered writers with the opposite problem) is in absolute terms a writing flaw. However, given that there's no such thing as a perfect writer, how important that flaw is is largely a function of value-neutral reader taste. And I'm certainly not going to defend my own taste as having any particular virtue to it. Though I will defend myself to the extent of saying it's not that I can only relate to female characters or only enjoy a story with at least one woman in a lead role--after all, I do love LotR, and my other favorite movie from this year is Master and Commander --I'm even reading those books now, after finding them dry the first time I tried them. It's just that if you asked me why LotR doesn't top my all-time favorite books list, I'd say it's because Tolkien's female characters didn't work for me.

Susan, am I correct in thinking that what you're saying is that you prefer strong and believable female characters over female characters who don't share those traits - not just S&B female characters rather than S&B male characters? Maybe this is where some of the confusion is coming from. Or maybe I'm the one confused.

Susan, am I correct in thinking that what you're saying is that you prefer strong and believable female characters over female characters who don't share those traits - not just S&B female characters rather than S&B male characters?

Exactly. (Well, I do have a preference for stories where women play important roles, but not to the extent that I can't love one where they don't. See under loving Master and Commander.)