I think, if I were going to mark out female villains of Tolkien, Ungoliant from The Silmarillion would be the one I'd look at cock-eyed. We get a lot more psychology of that character, and it comes across to me as a lot more self-serving and less plot-serving, and there's the spawn issue. Not to say there's not a relationship with the item Ple doesn't like, but Ungoliant comes after, in completion/publishing terms, and is like a magnification of its publishing predecessor.

(Blah blah disclaimer about J.R.R. being dead for parts of the organization/writing of The Silmarillion. )

Given the context of Tolkien writing from a traditional viewpoint of women, it's interesting to me that most of the women are so memorable. When Middle-earthians pray, they pray to Elbereth; Luthien is arguably more famous than Beren; Galadriel cuts a far more memorable portrait than Elrond. I can be sort of affectionate towards Tolkien's antiquarian views, I think, because although he finds women confounding and confusing, he also finds them fascinating.

Galadriel, Melian, Elbereth: all hugely powerful and important, rather more important than their consorts, or at least more beloved. Elbereth's consort was Manwe, so probably she doesn't outrank him. But she made the Trees, didn't she?

And, yeah, Luthien kicked ass.

I loved the fact that when Beren and Luthien came back from the dead, everyone but everyone was weirded out by it and they had to go far away to live. Very believable, that...

In fairness to Tolkien, I'm more intellectually disturbed by the women-as-other

What's struck me in LotR is how everyone except the Hobbits are "other", the good and the evil, even Men. Who are not quite as men are "today" (the quotes being to represent both the point of view of the telling, and to indicate by today I mean Tolkien's era).

Granted, Hobbit women are represented pretty much by Rosie Cotton and Lobelia Sackville-Baggins and that's it.

Hmm, if I had a point, I seem to have lost it.

Hey, Lobelia comes out well in the end. She's just extremely cantankerous. Actually I wouldn't be surprised if she was a parody of someone specific Tolkien knew. Her husband and son came across as real lice.

snerksnerksnerk.

DM and BB run circles around a reporter here.

Oh, that's brilliant. I'd buy their car to spend a day with them.

If I were really rich, I mean.

I get what Ple is saying about Shelob. The description subtly evokes not just a female figure but a soft, baggy-bellied, pendulous-breasted kind of post-child bearing hag/disgust.

But generally speaking I was pinged more on the "suspicious brown people from the east" than the gender issues.

Though I enjoyed RoTK, I think it is easily the least of the theatrical releases As A Movie. I think a lot of the emotional affect is earned earlier and pays off here. I got the feeling (I think JessiMoon mentioned this) that PJ's edit of this movie was affected by putting together the extended editions of the earlier two movies. At a certain point he just threw up his hands and said, "I'm contractually obligated t make this 3 hours. There's no way I can get it all in. I'll just have to go with the extended edition as my personal director's cut."

What is the whitefont rule for this thread anyway? Do we give it a week or two? 'Cuz I'm thinking you shouldn't be reading this far in without having seen it at this point. The last two hundred posts are all specifically related to the movie.

So when I got home last night I sat down with a glass of wine and the Extended Edition of FotR. Watched the whole thing, and I hope to do the same with TTT tonight or tomorrow.

You know? PJ is fucking brilliant.

There's all these little grace notes in the earlier movies that pay off in RotK. Like the hobbits learning to fight from Boromir and then going on to bigger battles. Like Gandalf meeting Frodo at the beginning of the film and both of them bursting into laughter, and then the laughter after Frodo wakes up after the Ring is destroyed. Like Frodo saving Sam by grabbing his hand and pulling him out of the water at the end of FotR and Sam saving Frodo by grabbing his hand and pulling him out of the fire at the end of RotK.

Sam and Frodo watching the Elves heading for the Grey Havens in FotR, and Sam saying, "I don't know why, but it makes me sad."

It's amazing to me that they managed to pull it off, but I'm particularly pleased that they filmed all three movies at roughly the same time, so they had the opportunity to make sure they picked up on certain elements and carried them through. When they needed to, they could go backwards and insert stuff to make sure it worked.

t happy sigh

There's all these little grace notes in the earlier movies that pay off in RotK.

Yes. Remembered another one while talking to a friend:

Faramir being dragged into Minas Tirith with arrows sticking out of him, just like poor Boromir (and Boromir, of course, echoing Isildur's earlier failure and death).

Anyway, into the whitefont:

Only crypoint: Aragorn and all of Gondor bowing down before the Hobbitses.

Jagged Narrative Elision: They're in Isengaard and then...they're all frolicking in Rohan. I got confused.

Straight Up Asspull: Arwen has Summers blood? With the ring and the thing. As already noted.

Cheese Factor (with asspull penumbra): I know it's in the books, but "We're horribly outnumbered. It is hopeless. Oh look, fifteen feet away is a bad mountain filled with ghost warriors who happen to owe me fealty. Dude! Let's get some green guys." Also, the eagles were cheesy. I don't know why they were and a giant spider wasn't, but...Gee that's an awfully convenient and unearned narrative conceit.

Foxtrot Factor: So many teen girls in my audience ka-shrieking over Orlando with teenbopper fervor. It was cute and distracting.

Most Beautiful Goth Madonna: When Sam pulled the spider web off Frodo's face. He looked so pale and beautiful and corrupted.

Frodo: Hero or Abject Loserino? Concur with JRRT's description. An impossible task and Frodo is redeemed by his act of mercy. However, when Bilbo asks after the ring at the end, Frodo very tellingly says "I lost it" not "I destroyed it." I thought at first that was to spare Bilbo - which it did - but I think it is also exactly what Frodo felt. Loss.

Vets and junkies: For much of the movie I did view Frodo's relationship with the ring as very junkie-like. Ditto on Gollum as the older junkie. However, at the end I felt the more immediate parallel was that Frodo was like a young man returning from WWI who saw so many horrors that he could never really re-integrate into his small towns. He was darkened. That is the look on Gandalf's face at the Council when Frodo takes up the task. He knows that it is Frodo's innocence and goodness which must be sacrificed (and probably Frodo's life). Frodo will always feel like he failed because he submitted to the ring in the end.

Character Arcs: The three characters whose stories really move in this movie are Pippin, Sam and Eowyn. All three beautifully portrayed - as everybody has already raved. Though I had imagined Eowyn being a little less shaky while facing down the Witch King.

Battles and warrior thrills: For sheer spectacle the Riders of Rohan massing was beautiful. But at a certain point the scale was a problem. I thought Helm's Deep was far more exciting, and the individual fights in FoTR better still. Legolas v. the Oliphaunt was cool only because Aragorn nods at the Oliphaunt, tilts his head at it, says "Legolas!" and SuperElf steps up and takes it out. However, since it was all one big CGI-fest it was much less thrilling to me than Legolas human-sized moves in FoTR. Most exciting feats of bravery with a blade were Sam v. Shelob, and Eowyn lopping the head off the fell beast (moreso than poking the Witch King in the face. Frankly that scene is a big ol' object lesson in how not to be an Evil Overlord).

Raquel says... that Gollum twirling around on invisible Frodo was unfortunately laugh making, and yeah that was bad. Also Denethor's lighting of the Olympic Torch Run Gone Awry. The Eye of Sauron's double-takes were pretty goofy too (as Jessimoon noted).

Which is not to say... that the cheesiness is all bad. I liked very much that they picked a big geeky horror film director for this project because it was juicy and wet. The big emotions and the main themes were there, and the attention to detail was fantastic and an absolute gift. So I can forgive many of the instances of cheese. They're just still cheesy.