Oz ,'Beneath You'
Frodo: Please, what does it always mean, this... this "Aragorn"? Elrond: That's his name. Aragorn, son of Arathorn. Aragorn: I like "Strider." Elrond: We named the *dog* "Strider".
A discussion of Lord of the Rings - The Return of the King. If you're a pervy hobbit fancier, this is the place for you.
The focus is on Pippin during the oathtaking, then he stands just as Denethor says "...oathbreaking with vengence,"
Ah, Kathy, if only he did say "oathbreaking with vengeance". Maybe he will in the EE.
t rassenfrassen trust the audience, trust the book, PJ, bitter tag never closes
OK, I'm getting my Denethor lines confused. I know he said something different in the film than in the book at that point, but I thought it was "vengence"--what was it in the film?
He says "disloyalty with vengeance" and I don't know why they changed it. Maybe they were worried about "oathbreaking" coming across clearly to the audience. I'm pretty invested in "oathbreaking with vengeance" (it's been part of the fealty oath in several SCA kingdoms for thirty years), and first, I didn't think he was going to use the scene, then he comes back to it, and then they mangled the line. It was a grr ... arrgh moment.
I knew "vengence" was involved somehow! I think that the "disloyalty" part came because he was shifting the conversation from Pippin to Faramir, so it was less of a warning to a new guardsman than an insult to his son's decision-making abilities. Watch Faramir face in the background as Denethor says it--you can see him just barely flinch.
I saw the whole lembas incident as being the replacement for the Choices chapter, at least in terms of being Sam's low point.
I can see as how Choices is problematic, for rendering to screen, but what they came up with instead was kind of -- silly. For one thing, where does Sam think he is going, climbing down the Stairs? Right back into the arms of the Huge Army O' Doom?? For another, it allowed Gollum to have far more storyline than he probably ought. For all it's emotionally about Frodo and Sam, it's Gollum who gets the screen time and the narrative importance.
So, they had to externalize the struggle somehow, and the best way to drive Sam to his worst moment ever was by having Frodo turn on him.
Well, the other problem is that Choices isn't entirely about Sam's despair; it's about his, literally, being forced to make his own choices. And although I think a great deal of the chapter's events would come out awful on screen, I really really wanted to see Sam absolutely fall apart -- not because of malice, but because of his own fear of powerfulness. The most important decision ever made in the novel is Sam taking up the ring himself, and the film chooses not to show us that moment.
Word choice is funny. On the Pelennor Fields, Eowyn says "I will kill you if you touch him" rather than "smite", and okay, smite is a hard word, but earlier on we already had Gandalf describe how he beat up the balrog and "smote his ruin on the mountainside."
Maybe only distinguished Englishmen get to say the $0.50 words?
Word choice is funny. On the Pelennor Fields, Eowyn says "I will kill you if you touch him" rather than "smite", and okay, smite is a hard word, but earlier on we already had Gandalf describe how he beat up the balrog and "smote his ruin on the mountainside."
I miss "smite" in Eowyn's speech terribly, and I can't imagine why they changed that either.
I miss "smite" in Eowyn's speech terribly, and I can't imagine why they changed that either.
It wasn't a shoutout to the Very Secret Diaries?
Use the poet's language, dude. We'll never see his like again. You can trust it. Grr.
Individually, I enjoy Merry's story so much more in the book than I do the movie.Totally with you on this. Merry's relationship with Theoden is something I hope gets more airtime in the EE, because it was always one of my favorite things. His grief when Theoden dies gets me every time. *sniff* I love Rohan and all her people.
In addition to the smiting, I wish they had left Eowyn saying "No living man am I. You look upon a woman." I understand that might not play as well on screen, but it's more Tolkien-y.
The only thing that bothered me about the Merry/Pippin characterization was how they joined the quest. They came off as slightly stupid, whereas in the book they seem more naive than anything. They choose to go with Frodo. They might not know exactly what they're letting themselves in for, but they don't just get swept along for the ride.
Smite sounds much less fierce and powerful than kill. When Gandalfe used it he was telling a story, a natural place for poetic language--when Eowyn used it she was making a threat--a natural place for more direct languge.