I saw "Rosebud" as an attempt to find meaning in a world that was inadvertently destroying it.

But then I was big on the symbolists back in the day.

Also, I don't think Kane betrayed his youthful ideals, either, Nutty -- I think the revelation of "Rosebud" at the end was more a last-ditch realization that sometimes simple things are more or as pleasant wealth and privilege.

What you people aren't agreeing with me? What is wrong with you??

Okay. Let's scratch Citizen Kane, although I SWEAR there is a thesis about the American Dream in there, honest, and other people have agreed with me before. Compare Undine to various mythic heroes of pioneering.

Vigor = west, effete shmucks = east? Is Undine's journey manifest destiny? Are the New York elites she creams so effectively Nobly Doomed the ways that Native Americans were mythologized out of primacy?

I'm with Betsy. The point of the movie is that we don't know why he said, "Rosebud," or if it meant anything at all,because all we know is what other people thought of him; not what he thought of himself. For all we know, right before dying he was all, "Damn, what was the name of that sled? It's on the tip of my tongue..."

We don't know for sure what "Rosebud" means, but the way the movie is structured it is significant in itself that (a) that's the last thing he says, and (b) what that information means is withheld from the reporter but revealed to the audience.

Aside from the meta of "Rosebud", I do think the connoted meaning is that Kane is human and that while the complexities of his character are not defined by his childhood, what happened in his childhood does need to be factored into the whole of our judgement.

Whether that is entirely supported or undermined in the text is a trickier question.

But "Rosebud" is a McGuffin. It's like the stolen money in Pscyho or the car bomb in Touch of Evil. They're all plot devices, not the point of the story. I think we're told what Rosebud is to underline its irrelevancy.

But "Rosebud" is a McGuffin. It's like the stolen money in Pscyho or the car bomb in Touch of Evil.

I don't know. Do the last scenes in Psycho and Touch of Evil focus on the money and the bomb? It seems that having the last scene in Citizen Kane focus on "Rosebud," as well as the earlier sledding stuff and the dying words, suggest it's a bit more than a McGuffin.

I think it's the point of the story in that the film is structured like a bio of a great man, and chronicles his rise to great power and influence and finally the one thing he seems to be connected to is that part of his life BEFORE he "achieved" anything. The pleasure of the film is its narrative and all the wonderful Wellesian and Tolandian touches, but the story itself is an expose of how hollow fame and power is.

I kept going back and forth over whether to admire or loathe her -- she's bold and strategic and unabashed, but the goals she's seeking are so empty.

Yes. Which is sort of the point. You're looking at three strata of society -- the old European elite, the American elite, and this new upstart group of capitalistic money-makers who are redefining what "class" means.

And, um, I don't have much time to talk about this at the moment, because, you know, hurricane, but I think the end of the book is brilliant. You feel bad for Ralph Marvell, and you feel bad for all the guys she steps on, but it's a kind of Darwinism. It's not the kind of world that Ralph Marvell can survive in with any sort of success, not any more.

Rosebud is very important to the reporter, who wants to hang his story on it. It is very important to Kane at the moment of his death. It's not very important to the viewer, except as the trigger for catharsis. We know that Rosebud is the sled, but what this tells us is that life is unknowable.

but the story itself is an expose of how hollow fame and power is.

I think it's also about the importance of the moment. At the moment of Kane's death, Rosebud is vital; afterward, it's worthless. And there's the great brilliant heartstopping speech about the girl on the ferry. You'll never see that girl again, but her moment is eternal.