Aside from its major flaws, a total retcon..

>TB, the fourth book, you mean? Not the series, I hope. I loved the first two - Hollow Hills and Crystal Cave - with a stone passion.

I meant only the fourth book. Mordred was a total retcon. I loved the entire trilogy (even the third one), and always pretend the forth book never happened.

In terms of Tepper; yeah Tepper really does seem to hold views that other feminists are often caricatured as having. Even Andrea Dworkin holds more nuanced views than she is given credit for. Or put it this way; Tepper's particular version of feminism makes Dworkin seem nuanced by comparison.

I also notice that Tepper actually uses her feminism to be quite reactionary on other issues. She seems to hate poor people passionately. Every now and then she will portray a male who is more or less decent, always aristocratic or at least very upper middle class. I don't remember her ever portraying a working man, let alone a poor man who came across as OK.

Even poor women are usually not portrayed very favorably; and when they are, you know that one way or another they are going to end up in an aristocracy. Note that Marianne was only temperorarily poor, having been cheated of a rich inheritance.

I also remember in Beauty, a passing comment to the effect that at least the old knights, chauvinist as they were, were chivaloraus and gallant to women. The comparison was being made to modern high school males.

It seems to me that writing on such a subject, she might have taken about five minutes to do enough research to determine that even at the height of the fashion for chivalary (not a very long portion of the history of knighthood) chivalary was reserved for upper class women. Lower class women were pretty much fair game for very riough seduction and rape. I seem to remember learning this in passing in college from my Freshman Western Civilization textbook.

I loved the Marianne trilogy, and most of the True Game series; so I was really annoyed started tossing anvils.

TB, I am in complete agreement with you, both on the fourth book of the Merlin series and on Tepper's views - hence are snarling smackdown back at the Nebulas when the earth was still cooling.

I would have like to have seen that - or at least read a transcript.

All I remember was saying I thought "The Gate to Womens Country" had some interesting ideas, or that it was a very interesting take on a concept, or something - made it clear I'd found it an interesting read which, lord knows, I wouldn't have said as an insult. She looked me up and down and made some crack about not really worrying about crit from one of those so-called feminists who wears makeup and high heels. I responded with the comment that any woman who didn't think making her own body happy in whatever way nourished it was a valid expression of personal power, much less feminism, needed to go the fuck away and think about it some more. We then snarled off in different directions, and I never read another word she wrote. End of discussion.

Scary thing? I have no memory of her physicality. I not only couldn't tell you what she was wearing, I couldn't tell you what she looked like. I wouldn't have known her on the street the following day, that's how completely I blocked her out.

Oh, True Game! I liked that concept a lot, but her trying to write from a male character's POV was painful.

She also seems to really have a hate-on for the Mormons. Doesn't she live in the SW somewhere? Maybe it's time for her to move.

Scary thing? I have no memory of her physicality. I not only couldn't tell you what she was wearing, I couldn't tell you what she looked like. I wouldn't have known her on the street the following day, that's how completely I blocked her out.

And unfortunately, based on her reaction to what you said, all I can do is picture her as Dworkin's equally evil twin.

My main gripe with Dworkin has always been that if someone tried a sense of humour implant on her, her system would almost certainly reject it.

My main gripe with Dworkin has always been that if someone tried a sense of humour implant on her, her system would almost certainly reject it.

I think like matter and anti-matter smacking into each other, such an attempt would cause wide-spread destruction.

I agree Deborah. And it's unfortunate - because some of what Dworkin has to say is actually worth thinking about. When the U.S. supported the Majadeen agains the Russians in Afghanistan she was one of the first to say "Yes, support the resistance against them - but not the fundamentalists. There are lot's of other groups opposing the Russians." And she was ignored , and Aghanistan ended up with the Taliban. On some subjects (admittedly not pornography or male sexuality in my opinion) I fnd her quite sensible.

Manoman (or womanowoman, or whatever), we are all in agreement here, and nice does it feel, yes indeed, and why in sweet hell am I talking like Yoda?

Yes to Plei, yesyesyes. There aren't enough anti-rejection drugs to make that transplant possible.

And yes to TB, and it's precisely what makes me nuts about Dworkin - she's such a sour fruitloop most of the time that the good stuff gets buried.