Raise your hand if 'ew.'

Buffy ,'Same Time, Same Place'


We're Literary 2: To Read Makes Our Speaking English Good  

There's more to life than watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer! No. Really, there is! Honestly! Here's a place for Buffistas to come and discuss what it is they're reading, their favorite authors and poets. "Geez. Crack a book sometime."


Narrator - Oct 12, 2004 2:16:14 pm PDT #6161 of 10002
The evil is this way?

(Places cotton in ears to drown out "Star Trek" songs, and begins eulogy for Weasleys. Any of them. All of them.)


Polter-Cow - Oct 12, 2004 2:35:24 pm PDT #6162 of 10002
What else besides ramen can you scoop? YOU CAN SCOOP THIS WORLD FROM DARKNESS!

Amazon.com interviews LKH.


Betsy HP - Oct 12, 2004 2:49:07 pm PDT #6163 of 10002
If I only had a brain...

Once upon a time, I just looked down and whatever I was wearing, that is what Anita wore. ... Anita wears more T-shirts now just as I do.

M-A-R-Y S-U-E


erikaj - Oct 12, 2004 4:39:16 pm PDT #6164 of 10002
Always Anti-fascist!

At what point are you borrowing from yourself to help create a character, and at what point is she a Mary Sue? Because I worry about that, when I write sometimes and I've not written about singing one way or the other yet.


Susan W. - Oct 12, 2004 4:49:33 pm PDT #6165 of 10002
Good Trouble and Righteous Fights

Some of my favorite characters often get called Mary Sues (I'm thinking Harriet Vane and Phedre in the Kushiel books), and while I can see where the criticism is coming from, I really don't care because the characters are vivid and interesting to me. I wonder if this makes me flawed as a reader and/or a writer.


sumi - Oct 12, 2004 5:17:38 pm PDT #6166 of 10002
Art Crawl!!!

Went to the library yesterday and discovered that Marian Chesney is M.C. Beaton.

Which upon reflection -- makes a lot of sense.


Typo Boy - Oct 12, 2004 5:19:08 pm PDT #6167 of 10002
Calli: My people have a saying. A man who trusts can never be betrayed, only mistaken.Avon: Life expectancy among your people must be extremely short.

Don't think vane could reasonably be called a mary sue.Phedre I think so. I find it very suspicious when a character almost never makes a seriously bad choice. Vane made plenty, P not so much.


Susan W. - Oct 12, 2004 5:28:10 pm PDT #6168 of 10002
Good Trouble and Righteous Fights

My understanding is that Harriet is a fairly transparent authorial insertion. The thing is, if I like a character sufficiently, I don't care if they're an authorial insertion, idealized or otherwise.


Nutty - Oct 12, 2004 5:40:45 pm PDT #6169 of 10002
"Mister Spock is on his fanny, sir. Reports heavy damage."

Well, somebody's got to like Mary Sues, or else they wouldn't get published and the books wouldn't sell. They do, and they do. When people get together and snigger at Mary Sues, I think part of that outburst of laughter is the embarrassed recognition that one has loved, and continues to love, various authorial ego-ideal characters despite their obvious tricks.

The other part seems to me a venomous judgement of the ordinary fantasies of women -- who doesn't want to be perfect and talented and loved in every way? I think readers -- especially readers with fingers on the critique pulse -- are crueller to female Mary Sues than to male ones, maybe because 50 years of crap adventure have inured the reading public to perfect male heroes. But maybe the virulence of Mary Sue hatred is related to the intensity of love/hate of celebrities like Jennifer Lopez, whose life is a storybook romance, until she is suddenly a punishing diva ho.

I think I just argued myself into the idea that Mary Sue is a feminist issue. Huh.

Anyway, my thinking about Mary Sues began to change when I found out they used to be the (a) most popular and (b) highly prized genre of fan fiction. It's only recently -- say, ten years -- that people have begun looking down on Mary Sues so consistently. I look down on them generally, because they tend to be unsubtle and clumsy, but I've finally come to the conclusion that they're harmless.


§ ita § - Oct 13, 2004 4:11:59 am PDT #6170 of 10002
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.

Some people define a Mary Sue merely as an authorial insertion. Other people seem to require a degree of wish fulfilment to push a character over the line.