Oddly, my judgemental self would rate kids books higher. Probably a product of being an elem school teacher's child. All books are a badge of honor, and good kids books rank way up there. Hell, last xmas I got 2 and gave 2, to adults.

Off conversation, Jenny Boylan was on 48 Hours or somesuch. She wrote She's Not There about her experience being transgendered, and her decisions. Book was interesting and well written and I do recommend it. I felt she came off a little self centered, and not because of the decisions she made in her life. Just..generically self centered. It may also be the nature of the book itself, as it is about him becoming her, from the inside perspective, not the outside. Which I suppose is appropriate, but was to the detriment of my connecting with the book.

See, I find most Litfic stultifyingly boring.

Notably, I assayed "Atonement" on the strength of it's glowing reviews and thought "This is what passes for Literature these days?"

The pace was soooooooo slow and the subterranean volcanoes of angst so neatly bordered that I was just ready to gouge my eyes out. I soldiered it out though, and it picked up later but SHEESH!

One of the most gripping Josephine Teys (not telling which)

Betsy, could you white-font the title. I'm curious - there's one book of hers I've always heard is one of the best - period. Whitefonted: Daughter of Time I think.

Java, It was a Kate book. I finished and liked it and will seek out more.

Ken, the title is

Miss Pym Disposes

Micole and Ken both have very very very good taste in Tey. Ken's choice is generally considered one of the five best mysteries ever (I came to that conclusion on my own, but Murder, Ink and Murderess, Ink both agree), along with Allingham's tale of a completely amoral man, The Tiger in the Smoke.

Micole, I think, oddly enough, that the lowest item on your list - children's lit - is actually held in fairly high esteem, at least by the reviewers I know. And thinking about it? There are a lot of modern books for both young children and young adults that rank as classics - possibly more than in any of the other genres.

Well, I know in college, it was pretty common for someone to judge a body and find said body wanting if said body read, oh, romance or fantasy, where reading mystery was seen as intellectually acceptable.

Plei, back in my high school - hang out with college students days (end of sixties), the reverse was true. If you weren't holding and ready to discuss to the point of tears of boredom one of the following, you had no cred:

1. Heinlein, Stranger in a Strange Land
2. Anything by Tolkein
3. Anything by Gibran
4. Herman Hesse, Steppenwolf

The only points I got off that little lot was a half-point for Hesse's Siddartha. But you'll notice, not a mystery in the bunch. Scifi, fantasy, lots of literary metaphor.

The times, they have a-changed.

In Israel, until very recent years, SF got the worst translations, the least promotion, and only if you really knew what you wanted, you could find it hiding at bottom shelves in bookstores. There was always a group of 'hard core' fans, in the lack of a better description, that were familiar with the publications in other languages and somehow managed to get books from abroad (which was not that easy before the Amazon era), so the real serious places to look for good SF books were the second-hand bookstores, and only if your English was fluent enough.

Recently, things improved immensely, mainly because - in my opinion - publishers realized that the audience is very dedicated and willing to pay for quality. So lately there are good (and even excellent) translations, and some critics even write about SF books, even without the need to explain the genres in three full paragraphs before ever getting to the book itself.

With fantasy (or at least what I think is fantasy - I'm not sure I'm really clear on what this term describes), things were a little slower. Tolkien was translated around 30 years ago, and the translation was re-done recently (before the films, not connected to them, as far as I know), but not much more. Whatever books were translated, they were more often than not categorized as children's books. And here, at least until "Harry Potter", children's books that had an element of not-in-real-life in them, in any sort of way, were looked upon as definitely inferior. Again, recently, and because publishers found out it can sell, there are more fantasy books being translated, but what was described above about the embarrassing covers is true here, too.

Mystery, however, gets much better attitude here. It is still being classified under the genre 'umbrella', so to speak, but it's not considered a genre that is embarrassing to read or to write. I think what best reflects this is the existence of Israeli writers who write mystery novels (some even very good ones, IMHO, and my O is very H because I haven't read way too many of the names you've all mentioned, so my ignorance in the field is vast). Some are respected mainstream writers who also write mysteries. Nobody here writes SF, let alone fantasy. Well, not exactly, there is a beginning of a process that may end up as a real line of original Israeli creation in these genres (mainly starting developing on the internet, BTW) but it's still a wee baby hope thing, and from the couple of the last years only, so I don't have nearly enough perspective to say whether it's a sign for things to come or a sudden fluctuation alone.

The funny thing about the Israeli books market is that until around 10 years ago, most of the best-sellers were what is considered 'high literature' (this is an Hebrew expression, word for word, I don't know how to really-translate it into English). Only recently thrillers and romances and 'airport' books (is that how they're called?) managed to get respectably published, let alone dominate these lists.

How do reviewers stand on Ruth rendell?

I don't know about professional reviewers, but I couldn't finish the two books of hers that I tried. Didn't care about the protagonist. Didn't care about the plot. Didn't care about anything she mentioned, basically. I was disappointed, because they'd been recommended by people whose other book choices I'd really liked.

I picked up copies of the LotR trilogy for my plane ride last week, and got about halfway through The Two Towers. I hadn't read them since I was 15, and I didn't really like them that much then. But this time around I'm loving them. The same thing happened with me and F. Scott Fitz-Gerald's stuff, so I guess my tastes have really changed.

4. Herman Hesse, Steppenwolf

I went through a Hesse period in college. Reading Beneath the Wheel during finals? Not recommended. The other books on the list were big in my group, but I hung out with other members of our SF and gaming club, so my sample's skewed.

I'm in a Women's Book Group. I joined it because I was reading nothing but genre stuff and wanted to broaden my horizons. We all recommend stuff, and there's been a fair amount of SF, fantasy, and mystery novels. But as a group we tend to shy away from romance novels -- my recommendation of Cruisie seemed to strike people as daring -- and I think there's some unfortunate snobbishness going on. But if it wasn't for this group I would never have read Stones from the River or The Bone People, and we've included Dykes to Watch Out For in our list, which was fun. My main problem has been a fondness for Southern Gothic. Suffering, poverty, and bad grammar are unfortunate. That does not mean that putting them in your book automatically makes it literature. Daisy Fay & the Miracle Man made me want to throw the book through the wall. Give me a good Regency romance over that any day.

Still very new here (I've posted in the Great Write Way only, I think) but I've been lurking on this thread for weeks.

I worked in romance publishing (still do as a copy editor and copy writer) for years, and I've written one romance and am now writing YA books. Romance is definitely the red-headed stepchild of the publishing industry, but I think (possible unpopular opinion coming) part of the reason for that is the happily ever after factor. There are lots of romance authors who are fabulous writers, women I'd hold up against authors of mystery, SF, and fantasy. But the problem for the literary elite, I think, is that ending -- no matter how beautiful or stylish or moving the craft of the novel, it will always end (and sometimes in unlikely ways) with love conquering all, and the featured couple looking forward to a lifetime of love and happiness (and daffodils and puppies…).

That said, I read them and I love them. The fantasy, the happy ending, are part of what draws me to the genre, as much as the journey to get there. And if boards like All About Romance are any indication, the women who read romance are intelligent, critical, and discriminating -- they don't want to be written down to, and they know good (and bad) writing/plotting/characterization when they see it.

But I think mystery and SF/fantasy (which I admittedly don't read much) may get a bit more respect because there's no standard goal in mind -- the books don't always have to end with justice done or with peace achieved between warring planets, or what have you. They may explore similar and familiar territory, but they don't consistently take the same path.

How do reviewers stand on Ruth rendell?

I’m pretty sure reviewers still gush over her; she’s achieved that “master of the genre” status, I think. I used to love her, but lately her books have seemed flat, and kind of rote to me. Adam and Eve and Pinch Me was the last one I tried, and I never finished it. The books she’s written as Barbara Vine (at least the old ones) were books I loved – A Dark-Adapted Eye especially. Actually, scratch the earlier statement – I tried The Blood Doctor, which was a Vine book, and didn’t finish it either.

Someone mentioned the Salon article stating that mysteries do the same thing in the same way all the time, and I’m not sure I agree with that. Elizabeth George, at least, has mixed it up in her Lynley books, and it’s fascinating to get different perspectives on the crimes. One book had Havers investigating on her own, and at least two books have given Simon and Deborah the chance to sleuth. Anne Perry has also done that with her Thomas and Charlotte Pitt books, to a lesser degree, but I can’t read her anymore – she seems to be more invested in moralizing than developing a story, and the political stuff is a big fat yawn for me.

Ack -- the baby's awake.

I know that, in my discussions with Nutty about our different genre favorites (mine: romance, hers: sf/f), the major stumbling block on her part was the romance happy ending factor. She likes plots, and likes surprises, and is annoyed when she knows picking up the book what will happen in the end. I am not particularly interested in plots, and more interested in character and witty dialogue.