David, I don't want to get into that again.

Aw, Wolfram. Go you with the Buffista-ness.

(This was an exceedingly long thread to get through, for a day of posts.)

Nutty's [Very Own!] Law: In an unmoderated board environment, you are exactly as oppressed as you choose to be.

Love it. Which is basically what I would have said 10 hours ago, had I thought of it.

Also? What Karl said:

If what you really want is for peple to be more civil and to avoid 'running over each other' in text, then I'm afraid that the only way to lead is by example.

Rafmun, I tried to respond to you based on your words, but the words you chose, despite your assertions of dispassionate academia, conveyed to me the idea that you didn't much care about convincing me of anything but that we were all mean and should be ashamed of ourselves. Now, this may indeed not have been your intent, but if more than half the people responding to your posts took offense at the words you chose, then maybe it was your choice of words. On the other hand, if you really did intend to piss people off, you got it done. Go you.

Anyway, since Rafmun is so convinced nobody's listening to his original point, which is that an unnamed cabal of loudmouths is ruining the board experience of an unnamed group of marginalized quieter folks (okay, possibly hyperbole, it's late), let's reconsider that.

1. Karl and a few others stepped forward and said, yes, they felt marginalized recently, possibly talked-over or ignored by others. (Pause to hug Karl, who gives great hugs.)

2. Others disagree with this assertion. For myself, I expect it's possible, not just in Bureaucracy. The board has over 1200 registered posters (right?), twenty or so active threads, and the most active threads move like lightning. Not only is it possible for someone to get ignored, it's positively likely. It's not like you can make a single post in Natter nowadays and get a response (unless you're Rio).

3. Is this an actual problem? By which I mean, is this a function of human failings, or is it a function of board volume? Are we actually meaner than we used to be? And is there any way to measure that?

4. If it is an actual problem, or even if some of us think it is, what can be done about it? I offer Nutty's resolution, which ought to be memorialized anyway, because it's faaabulous:

RESOLVED: that all Buffistas shall forthwith, unto the ending of the world, (1) strive to speak and listen with a minimum of obnoxiousness, and with a maximum of empathy; (2) consider before posting anything, and double on anything composed under circumstances of high emotion; (3) acknowledge that word choice, phrasing, amount and extent of quoted material, and even those stupid emoticons constitute "tone" as practiced in an online environment, and that the sum definition of "tone" as set forth herein matters; (4) speak outright and specifically any resentments, dislikes, grudges and feelings, or not speak about them at all, an honest debate being greatly preferred to a veiled one; and (5) strive ceaselessly to groom one another verily like unto monkeys, preferably the nice soft giggly kind and not the kind that throws its shit at people in the zoo.

I bet I'm exceeding the post limit here, let's see what happens.

David, I don't want to get into that again.

It doesn't need to be revisted, I just wish it had played out differently.

As do I.

And Nutty...where were you all day!

Dude. A girl goes and runs some errands, and accidentally spends 3 hours in the library, and even gets to cross a couple of things off her to-do list in a single day, and you jump all over her!

On the up side, coming in after a lot of the puffing and blowing's done, and summarizing everything, and getting to claim coinage of a group dynamics law (and corollary) -- can't beat that with a stick.

an unnamed cabal of loudmouths is ruining the board experience of an unnamed group of marginalized quieter folks

Perhaps this is true. But the unnamed cabal is already a strong element of the posting table beyond bureau. How could I like posting here in any form if I really hated David, Plei and ita, to give examples. People in a minority will feel marginalized-- it's almost tautological.

No slam on your argument, 'suela, and I also think the only thing to do is for people to be nicer and then we won't have so many offended people. Great. For myself, not gonna.

ETA: because we already have an enforcement mechanism for that-- social capital. The goal is to become a valued participant, and I do what I need to do to be the best buffista I can be.

The goal is to become a valued participant, and I do what I need to do to be the best buffista I can be.

What happens when that isn't enough? And, perhaps more to the point, how can you become a valued participant if you feel unwelcomed?

What happens when that isn't enough?

If I felt like an unvalued participant, I'd probably leave (PLEASE NOTE: not a passive aggressive suggestion -- only talking about me, here).

Being unvalued, I'd not be missed, and after I licked a couple wounds, I'd hope to find somewhere else where I actually enjoyed being.

We don't have an obligation to treat people equally here. If there's nothing you can do to become a buffista, this isn't the place for you.