Someone right in off the street? I may ask for clarification, but that would be after I got offended. That's how close the subtext lies to your text.

I absolutely see that. And I'm, of course, not saying that you shouldn't be offended. But I am saying that your next post shouldn't be along the lines of 'you fucking asshole, how dare you'... You'd either ignore or ask for clarification.

I just don't see why the base assumption on the part of the reader shouldn't be on the side of benignity instead of malice. Mind you, this is with a newish poster. If it's someone you have a history with - positive or negative - of course that goes into the equation. But right off the bat to assume that someone is an asshole and reply accordingly? Makes for unpleasantness.

more than a few long-termers who stood up and said 'me too' to at least some of what I observed, and others who added much of their own concerns and observations. What of them? Surely they're not arrogant and patronizing too for feeling similarly, are they?

Nope.

Is there any way to not seem arrogant and patronizing when asking that the board become a little more hospitable and considerate of others, and that bullying and piling on be less rewarded?

Yup.

But right off the bat to assume that someone is an asshole and reply accordingly?

Right off the bat I assume they meant what they said. That's different from assuming they are an asshole, since it's dependent on their choices.

Nope.

Good, then perhaps we can agree to dislike me, and move on to trying to address the situation which makes those posters feel less than welcome. That would be good. That would be nice. That would be like Mountain Dew on a hot summer's night.... well, for those that like Mountain Dew, and don't mind the heat.

Maybe to you he is. He isn't to me. He isn't to several people.

Ditto, or like, Word, eh? I don't think of Rafmun as anything like a noob whatsoever, in spite of his occasional usage of Buffista-incorrect terms. He's been officially out as a Buffista for a couple of months and he's married to a Buffista. Not in a, oh, "he tolerates her wacky internet thing" kind of way, but in a "the Atlantic Canadians use their board for things like planning lunch and discussing Everything" kind of way. He isn't a noob in the sense that I think of someone new to a community. Now, I haven't been here a year yet, but I feel a sense of belonging as an old Bronze semi-lurker who knew folks here, so I may well be out of step.

Rafmun, you make me feel pretty unwelcome. What should we do about you?

Perhaps you could start by addressing these repeat offenders by name, it appears cowardly that you don't.

So, whose behavior is it that needs some readjusting, to make people feel more welcome? Let's talk to them, bring up examples of offending behavior so that they can see what it is and adjust accordingly for these long-term members.

Right off the bat I assume they meant what they said.

And from just words that's fine (though the example of my poor sentance structure shows that this can be in error too) - it's the adding of 'tone' or 'intent' that's most often a problem.

Back to the same post that began this discussion:

A few posters are definitely quite selfish and unwilling to accomodate the wishes and needs of others, and instead persistently require others to accomodate their wants and opinions.

Nutty's Corollary to Godwin's Law: When one person makes insinuating but vague accusations against one or more other persons, on behalf of a third party of one or more persons described by the first person as oppressed, the discussion is bound to go nowhere but acrimony and is effectively over. You might as well invoke Nazis. See also: Snacky's Law, where the invocation is "those popular people in high school".

Needless to say, I found Rafmun's tone -- word choice and phrasing -- from the very first condescending and verging on the passive-aggressive. That might have not been his intent, but that was how he came across to me, and it hurt my ability to listen to and understand his viewpoint.

Nutty's [Very Own!] Law: In an unmoderated board environment, you are exactly as oppressed as you choose to be.

Which is to say, I think I sussed out some of what Rafmun was trying to say, with assists from other people who chimed in -- but I don't think that feeling occasionally ignored or challenged or vaguely insulted or run-over by a Mack truck in the course of a discussion necessarily puts one at a particular level of social power or lack thereof. You've got the power of your eyeballs and your fingertips, however you choose to use these tools. Nobody will take either of these tools away from you (unless you really break the rules, which nobody has done here today).

So --

Given that we all have personalities; and that we cannot all sing Kumbaya in the same key at once at any given moment; and that we may or may not grow dislikes, nurse grudges, talk behind each other's backs, and occasionally full-out lose our shit,

RESOLVED: that all Buffistas shall forthwith, unto the ending of the world, (1) strive to speak and listen with a minimum of obnoxiousness, and with a maximum of empathy; (2) consider before posting anything, and double on anything composed under circumstances of high emotion; (3) acknowledge that word choice, phrasing, amount and extent of quoted material, and even those stupid emoticons constitute "tone" as practiced in an online environment, and that the sum definition of "tone" as set forth herein matters; (4) speak outright and specifically any resentments, dislikes, grudges and feelings, or not speak about them at all, an honest debate being greatly preferred to a veiled one; and (5) strive ceaselessly to groom one another verily like unto monkeys, preferably the nice soft giggly kind and not the kind that throws its shit at people in the zoo.

Speaking of grooming, I think Wolfram's entree into Natter, after his guacamole episode in Bureaucracy, was a wonderful example of monkey-grooming. Not "Oh, aren't you nice, let me wuv you forever" grooming, but "Here I am, my head is here, and my tail is over there, and the part in between is the groomable part" grooming. I mean, the wuv you forever stuff comes in time, but knowing what it is you're grooming, and how, is no small part of grooming. As anyone who has ever stepped on the business end of a hairbrush can tell you.

First off, I'd love to say, thank you for that post. If I don't necessarily agree with every point w/r/t board culture (though I think I understand the feeling), it's wonderful post that should be archived somewhere. One of the reasons I love this place and made it pretty much my only online...anything really.

Second in terms of the tone conversation, I'd say that while Rafmun has brought up some valuable points of discussion, he lost me, at least when it comes to his posts on the subject, with his "what have we learned today" post, the gist of which probably sent a lot of people's backs up.

If he's been lurking the general board as long as he says, and I know he's been here in specific threads for a while, he should have known that lecturing uses of the royal "we" were going to fly around here about as well as a dead penguin. Just my two cents - none of which is a dismissal of the subject at hand.

What Shawn said.

and move on to trying to address the situation which makes those posters feel less than welcome.

Dude, read the last 400 posts. We've been talking about the points you brought up all day. Is there something specific you're waiting to hear? Maybe you should better just post it yourself, since obviously we're not getting it.

[edit: Nutty's post is just about the most sensible and well-phrased thing I've read yet.]