Please don't negate the efforts of those of us who are attempting to look at the merits of your posts by getting snotty. And yes, tone comes from both ends -- writer and reader. Dana isn't over-sensitive, and neither am I.

You're absolutely right about both sides bringing something to tone. However, I stated up front what I was bringing, so I'm confused.

I don't know what tone you're reading into my posts, but it honestly is simply intended to be an academic observation style tone, and if I want to switch to snotty, I'll be real clear about that. Seriously, and no bullsh*t.

A series of posters attempting to explain to me what debate is, on the other hand, could be seen by some as leaning toward condescention.

Anyway, original point sufficiently burried now as to have become mostly moot.

Don't know if that proves my point, or invalidates it. Or both. But I'm going out for coffee. Feel free to continue to argue, oggle, fondle, or debate among yourselves.

The Good Old Days. I miss them, too. Dana and I don't filk any more (I can hear you all breathing sighs of relief.) We don't see outbursts like the Spoiler Prayer. It's not as playful.

But then I look at the last few years. The American economy has been depressed, or in a "jobless recovery". There's a war on. On a personal note, many of us are out of work or underemployed. We've had several major illnesses, at least one divorce, and in general a whole shitload of unhappiness.

If the tone of the board has changed, I think a lot of it has to do with exhaustion. I know I'm snappish lately, just because I'm too tired to cope, and I think I'm not the only one. I'd like the old joy back, but I can't will it into existence.

I wish us all better days.

Unburdened by the politics

and

though informed by discussions with long-termers

These strike me as somewhat contradictory. If you've been reading for months and have ongoing relationships with long-term members of the board, you are in no way unburdened by politics. No one could be.

Anyway, the point I wanted to make is that no one member's experience of the board can be construed as representative of any other member's experience, or of the board as a whole. This board is simply too large, the threads move too fast, for anyone to be able to say authoritatively that X is happening boardwide.

That doesn't negate the validity of any one member's experience, but it makes it very difficult to identify any sort of board-wide problem. When I'm busy, I spend my time in Lit, Fic, and Boxed Set. I'm completely oblivious to the big tussles and kerfuffles going on in Kafka, Natter, and Bitches. To me, everything's rosy. That's a valid experience, even if not a comprehensive one.

Just something to consider, okay?

Oh lord, that was a lot of catching up to do.

Rafmun, you came into this thread and stated that there was a small group of selfish and agressive posters that were running this board and forcing people to leave. No matter who made that statement, or how long they'd been posting, there would have been a strong outcry for proof or examples. Especially when you say that you're basing your position on the thoughts and feelings of other people who won't speak up. It really is, "the lurkers support me in email," which could be entirely true but is not a statement that is ever going to be conducive to a productive conversation.

Would the ensuing discussion have been different in tone had it been started by a poster who had been here longer? I'm not entirely sure. Essentially, you dropped a bomb and people reacted. I honestly don't think this is a case where it has anything to do with being a "newbie".

if I want to switch to snotty, I'll be real clear about that.

Rafmun, what many of us are saying is that whether or not you state your intention to be otherwise, your posts are offensive in tone.

Self-referencially quoting myself, in a referencial manner, in response to piling on.

Honestly, this reads like tapdancing for your own self-amusement. It makes me less interested in having reasoned debate with you, since you don't seem to be taking the discussion seriously.

hearts msbelle, despite personal loathing for pink *g*

Oh yes, very much. So much that I really really want to tag this.

we all eventually enter the realm of cycles of cranky and grumpy.

'Sokay?

A series of posters attempting to explain to me what debate is, on the other hand, could be seen by some as leaning toward condescention.

No, that would be cross-posting. Happens all the time.

However, I stated up front what I was bringing

I freely admit I missed the original post. As I think I got the content, I'm not that concerned, but it serves me right for skipping when I should have skimmed.

You say you didn't mean to appear snotty? Fine, I accept that, although I think my point still stands -- if you want people to be nicer to one another here, charity begins at home. It's not impossible to be pleasant to people we disagree with -- the very existence of this board supports that premise.

I actually do think newbies should think twice before posting an unpopular opinion. Not that they shouldn't do it, but they should think twice. Because we do take shit seriously, and we also are a community. Shit, I don't know, can someone just Nilly poor Wolfram's brouhaha? All of this was said then.

Yes, I'm too lazy to do it, but it might be helpful.

The problem a newbie has is not just asserting the historical creds to criticize the community (in this case), but acclimating posts to conform with the community. And this works both ways.

The newbie learns how to post in our special style without sounding obnoxious or patronizing. The community grows accustomed to the newbie's posting style and can better tell the tone that the newbie is trying to convey.

Often these adjustments take time. Some of us learn it the hard way.

original point sufficiently burried now as to have become mostly moot.

Your original post: Rafmun "Bureaucracy 2: Like Sartre, Only Longer" Mar 30, 2004 6:05:11 am PST

"PREFACE: The following is offered as observation, and in the spirit and tone of academic discussion.

It is also offered from the perspective of an outsider who has lurked for a fairly long time now, and who felt both piled upon and marginalized with his first offer of perspective in this thread - so it is unavoidably influenced by that experience.

OBSERVATION I don't think that newbies are particularly targeted or treated differently than long term posters.

I don't think newbies are piled upon by 'most of the board'.

DIME-STORE ANALYSIS After watching for a good time now, it seems from my perspective that there exists on this board a very large group of happy posters who go about day to day business on the board without involving themselves in bureaucracy or other threads/issues of controversy. 99 per cent of posters at this place are the most friggin' awesome group of intelligent, humourous and caring people found just about anywhere online.

But overshadowing the majority of posters is a very small group of activist posters who make it their business to involve themselves in most issues. These posters are currently directing the direction of the board by sheer pressure of persistence. These are not necessarily the board moderators, but rather, they are the proverbial squeaky wheels. These activist posters' points are not necessarily stronger in any given debate, and there are even a few posters who will persist in misdirecting debate away from actual points (i.e., the recent discussion over tone evolved without taking into equal consideration the points being forwarded).

It seems from an outside perspective that it has become more important to a small minority of posters to impose their feelings on the board than make the board better for the group.

This has not been specifically directed at newbies or at long-termers, but rather it seems indiscriminate - though it does seem like a few long-termers are being specifically singled out by a few of the activists.

There seems little question that this situation has alienated - at least to some degree - both newbies and long-termers. Some newbies simply leave while others accept the artificial hierarchy of culture. Some veteran posters have been marginalized and driven away from posting by this same situation. Others simply go on with their posting, but have given up trying to offer constructive input because they don't wish the long and largely fruitless debate to follow.

Anyway, this seems to be the way most boards drift over time - even the excellent ones. It seems partly a product of human nature, and partly a result of boards lacking a defined benevolent authority structure.

Let me reiterate - the above is the simple observation of a single person. It is offered only to the extent that the perspective of a lurker and newbie may be valuable in some way. If it is not valuable, useful, wanted or welcome, then please feel free to ignore.

In the interest of total sincerity, I will acknowledge that it is also offered with the smallest hope that it may play a wee part in the effort to bring out or bring back input from that 'silent majority' who are still around, and who were instrumental in making this one of the strongest, most enlightened, accepting, tolerant and tightest knit communities anywhere on the web.

We are STILL talking about a small group of posters waving their magical aggressive wands at the board and controlling all discussion and decisions.

I for one have moved from looking at your post thoughtfully and saying "yes, this does sometimes happen" and "I may be that person sometimes" to getting bothered with you for accusing teh collective us of ignoring you and getting sidetracked and being so easilyt walked over by these powerful posters.