Okey doke – I’m taking Hil and Nilly’s advice (thank you for the feedback). Hope it adds to the conversation and isn’t just redundant. I will post it in two posts since it’s reeeeeally long.

I almost didn't post anything, since I am still so new and don’t want to be seen as the person who needs to have a say in everything (not to mention my desire, albeit Shrift’s excellent advice, to not piss anyone off)…but then I thought that maybe my newness might be an especially important perspective to add to this conversation. So here goes. I apologize for the length, but I figured it was better to say it all at once rather than belabor the point.

I'm choosing to not comment at all on Beej specifically -- I agree with Allyson that I feel weird about commenting on it without her here. These comments are more about newbie-acclimation in general.

I would find (would have found?) extra info in the FAQ useful, especially about the issues mentioned upthread (etiquette and guac-ed models). Saying "lurk first" is great advice, but I think that giving an example of what happened when someone didn't is much more powerful and easier to apply to one's own posting. It’s also a bit of a warm fuzzy to see that it’s not the end of your chance to ever be accepted if you get smacked down for a recent faceplant in the avocado.

Plus, concrete examples are useful for those of us with short attention spans and big mouths. In an ideal world, everyone would observe for an extended period of time...but I'm among those that are far from ideal. If someone is going to jump in before they really should anyway, maybe that would be one more way to make sure the splash is minimal.

I love the suggestions being made right now – especially the info about the real names (50/50 split or not) and the "how are you different from other online communities" possibilities that Java Cat just posted. Thank you for taking the time to discuss and update it. That alone shows a concern and respect for new folks.

In terms of the debate between those who want to be gentle and those who feel the newbie should sink or swim, I agree that there will never be a consensus on the issue. However, FWIW, I think generally that the good cop/bad cop seems to already happen. Even when there is a semi-pile-up, there are people who take the other side (just look at the discussion here). It seems to me that the newbie can learn pretty quickly from watching or from guac-ing that some buffistas are more likely to cut a new poster slack than others, and adjust accordingly. (And by adjusting, I mean making a choice to apologize, or being more careful about people’s buttons, or avoiding confrontation with people whom you’ve pissed off, or shutting up completely – etc.)

It is always difficult to figure out your place in a new group, and I think it’s natural to expect rough patches. I think most newbies tend to be a little deferential and careful because, well, we’re new. I certainly have tried to radiate an aura of inoffensiveness, not because I’m always naturally like that, but because I understand that I haven’t acquired the social capital to snark at will without lasting consequences.

I don’t think it is the board’s job to teach me that rule: it’s a human one.

When a newbie gets overenthusiastic and guacs, however, I think it’s great that there are immediately some people saying, “Here dear, let me give you a napkin to wipe your face” along with the people that are understandably pissed off. Obviously I'm not talking about those who are truly and knowingly offensive and who don't bother to take responsibility for it, but those who make honest (if irritating) mistakes. It is awkward and hard sometimes, and the kindness is appreciated.

Basically I'm saying that I think that that part of the system works already.

The only controversial thing I have to say is a request more than a comment. I know that newbies are new, and that therefore there is a tendency to think of us as overenthusiastic puppies. We reinforce that image when we are overly solicitous or deferential. But please…don’t let the hat with the big floppy ears fool you completely. In other words, I don’t mind at all the fact that I need to earn a place here or that I need to watch my step while doing it. I would mind if I felt that the veteran buffistas were thinking of me like a baby animal that needed training and scolding.

Luckily, my experience has been a very positive one, and I haven’t felt like anyone was going to buy me a wee-wee pad anytime soon…but some of the earlier conversation was starting to drift that way, and I felt the need to at least articulate that it was beginning to make me feel a little uncomfortable.

If someone takes their time to lurk, even for a bit, they will see this is a unique group of people who can have amazing discussions on a wide variety of subjects, tame and controversial. And yet in the end, even the most bitter participants will send each other tiaras.

Yep. That’s all she wrote. I really appreciate you taking the time to hear my perspective and will now be ending this novel of a post.

I will post it in two posts since it's reeeeeally long.

Um, not that long t /remembers some of her own posts

then I thought that maybe my newness might be an especially important perspective to add to this conversation.

That's one reason I was glad you offered to share your thoughts. It's one thing to say "I think I would have found that useful at the time", and another to say "this is how I feel right now".

If I understand what you're saying, in a practical what-to-do sense, the way things are done here now works for you, but additions to the FAQ (like the ones Java, Dana, DXM, Jon and tina are working on already) could make things better, right?

I would mind if I felt that the veteran buffistas were thinking of me like a baby animal that needed training and scolding.

Thanks for your perspective on that - I don't think I've seen this point mentioned before (not that I think that there's actual danger of that, IMHO, mind you, but I still think it's a very good thing to point out and remind people).

That was me with the puppy comment, and I used it to denote new posters of goodwill, eager to please, slightly clumsy, to differentiate between them and newbies we have had who were deliberately malicious, thoughtlessly careless, or deceptive. Or, you know, just wackaloonsill.

But describing boisterously unaware behavior as "puppy-like" actually excuses a newbie from attempting to conform to community standards. So not only is it derogatory, it's unproductive. I apologise for using it.

Just happy to 'see' Beverly on the Phoenix for two days in a row t /Natter

If I understand what you're saying, in a practical what-to-do sense, the way things are done here now works for you, but additions to the FAQ (like the ones Java, Dana, DXM, Jon and tina are working on already) could make things better, right?

Exactly, yes.

Also:

Does anybody think that this fact should be put in either the FAQ or any other page? That the threads move really fast, that more likely than not, a post being ignored has nothing to do with anything personal against the poster, just that people have a limited span of attention and it's a shame that on this case this certain person's content is what fell on the wayside?

Yes, that would also be really helpful, I think.

And thank you also for understanding what I was getting at in terms of the puppy comment. I think sometimes it's easy to forget that a new poster can feel like they're being condescended to as well. As I said, though, up until some of the rhetoric in this heated debate, that has not been my experience at all. I've felt welcomed and respected. I just wanted to mention it (and Bev, thank you, but truly -- no apology necessary as far as I'm concerned).

(natter) Oh brother is it late. I'll be lucky to get a two hour nap before the alarm goes off! See what happens when I get all riled up and worried about something? :) Off to bed....(/natter)

Well writen, Kristen, and thank you for your perspective. A valuable one in this conversation, to be sure.

This "am I posting in invisible ink electrons?" question seems to bother pretty much each and every Buffista, on occasion, no matter how long they've been posting, how many Buffistas they've met F2F and with what amounts of hugs and glitter.

Does anybody think that this fact should be put in either the FAQ or any other page? That the threads move really fast, that more likely than not, a post being ignored has nothing to do with anything personal against the poster, just that people have a limited span of attention and it's a shame that on this case this certain person's content is what fell on the wayside? Only, better phrased, of course?

Yes. Not that I have any suggestions. (Hi, Nilly! bye, Nilly!)

PREFACE: The following is offered as observation, and in the spirit and tone of academic discussion.

It is also offered from the perspective of an outsider who has lurked for a fairly long time now, and who felt both piled upon and marginalized with his first offer of perspective in this thread - so it is unavoidably influenced by that experience.

OBSERVATION I don't think that newbies are particularly targeted or treated differently than long term posters.

I don't think newbies are piled upon by 'most of the board'.

DIME-STORE ANALYSIS After watching for a good time now, it seems from my perspective that there exists on this board a very large group of happy posters who go about day to day business on the board without involving themselves in bureaucracy or other threads/issues of controversy. 99 per cent of posters at this place are the most friggin' awesome group of intelligent, humourous and caring people found just about anywhere online.

But overshadowing the majority of posters is a very small group of activist posters who make it their business to involve themselves in most issues. These posters are currently directing the direction of the board by sheer pressure of persistence. These are not necessarily the board moderators, but rather, they are the proverbial squeaky wheels. These activist posters' points are not necessarily stronger in any given debate, and there are even a few posters who will persist in misdirecting debate away from actual points (i.e., the recent discussion over tone evolved without taking into equal consideration the points being forwarded).

It seems from an outside perspective that it has become more important to a small minority of posters to impose their feelings on the board than make the board better for the group.

This has not been specifically directed at newbies or at long-termers, but rather it seems indiscriminate - though it does seem like a few long-termers are being specifically singled out by a few of the activists.

There seems little question that this situation has alienated - at least to some degree - both newbies and long-termers. Some newbies simply leave while others accept the artificial hierarchy of culture. Some veteran posters have been marginalized and driven away from posting by this same situation. Others simply go on with their posting, but have given up trying to offer constructive input because they don't wish the long and largely fruitless debate to follow.

Anyway, this seems to be the way most boards drift over time - even the excellent ones. It seems partly a product of human nature, and partly a result of boards lacking a defined benevolent authority structure.

Let me reiterate - the above is the simple observation of a single person. It is offered only to the extent that the perspective of a lurker and newbie may be valuable in some way. If it is not valuable, useful, wanted or welcome, then please feel free to ignore.

In the interest of total sincerity, I will acknowledge that it is also offered with the smallest hope that it may play a wee part in the effort to bring out or bring back input from that 'silent majority' who are still around, and who were instrumental in making this one of the strongest, most enlightened, accepting, tolerant and tightest knit communities anywhere on the web.

The vast majority of regular posting Buffistas have met each other at least once.

I would take that "vast majority" down to a "many." It seems to me like many/most of us have met at least some of the posters who live in our general geographical area, but I don't think the NYistas have all met the LAistas, or the UnAmericans all know the midwesterners.

Thing is it doesn't feel to me like most people use their real names here, it feels much more like a 50/50 split.

I would agree with ND on this. It's good to have in the FAQ as a historical note, though.

And I think I have to start using that to explain the Buffistas. We aren't weird internet people with an almost cult-like fannish tendency. We're a collective.

This should be in the FAQ.

In an ideal world, everyone would observe for an extended period of time...but I'm among those that are far from ideal.

Me too.

I always wonder what goes on with people who CAN just read a conversation about something they're passionate about for months or years before commenting. I'm lucky if I last two hours.

I think sometimes it's easy to forget that a new poster can feel like they're being condescended to as well.

This is a really importnat point, and thanks for posting it.