But you know I wouldn't be here if the Phoenix and the Buffistas were not da Bomb, right?

Yep.

As long as the people who click "recent" know I'm not trying to bust on them.

As beautiful thing as the threadsuck is, sometimes "recent" is the only doable option.

(for I am the queen of conflict avoidance; may all lesser conflict-avoiders bow down before me)

Well Holli, I guess have to take the position of queen mother of conflict avoidance then. At times I have to flee this thread because of the conflict avoidance issue. This is one of my true talents. I have managed to remain close friends with my first DH even after I divorced him after 12 years of marriage to be with another man. I may not thrill anyone with my witticisms, but I doubt I piss people off either. Friends have suggested that I should have been a diplomat.

I don’t feel compelled to attempt to define Buffistas or suggest a metaphor to describe our community. I read the bureaucracy thread because I was raised to participate in my community and I do feel I am a member of this community.

I’m not exactly sure (perhaps because I did massively conflict avoid here recently) what it is we are trying to decide here. Do we have an urgent need to define the community? I get that we are going through the process of discussion and voting to establish some structure and make some decisions. This is a necessary, perhaps evil, business process.

I do strongly feel that what happens in this thread does not define this community. I feel what happens in the other 30+ threads defines us quite nicely.

eta: I think RL is ex because of life schedule pressures.

RL still posts occasionally in the fiction threads.

I don’t feel compelled to attempt to define Buffistas or suggest a metaphor to describe our community. I read the bureaucracy thread because I was raised to participate in my community and I do feel I am a member of this community.

I’m not exactly sure (perhaps because I did massively conflict avoid here recently) what it is we are trying to decide here. Do we have an urgent need to define the community?

Yes. And may I just say, the "who are we" conversation scares me like no other topic we've wrestled around here. I strongly doubt that it will be a productive discussion, and I see a lot of potential for harm.

Gar, that's an excellent analogy.

By registering, this makes the person a citzen of the Phoenix.

So ChristianDollarStore? The spammerific troll. That was a citizen? Because I'm feeling pretty strongly that he/she/it wasn't

Yes, citizens. And when citizens screw up, they get thrown in jail. Or banned or booted or whatever your word of choice is. There is a difference between a citizen and a good citizen, but until proven otherwise, all citizens get basic rights. Their behavior afterwards shows if they're entitled to keep those rights.

Well, yeah, I'm thinking Connie's right on that. Registration isn't what makes you a spammer; it's posting spam that makes you a spammer. That you may register with full intent to spam is probably a bad thing, but I don't see as how it's preventable till after you post and prove your intent.

Brenda, FWIW, since I think I'm the one who explicitly brought up metaphors this time, I find it valuable to discuss them, every now and then. Partly because they shape the kind of language we use on other Bureaucractic discussion, partly because they give me insight into why everyone else doesn't automatically agree with me, partly because it is cool to open up other people's heads and find out what's inside. The "who are we" thing comes up cyclically, and as long as we're still pondering it, with a multiplicity of answers, I'm OK. I mean, it's dreadful boring on a re-read, because we really do this every two months, but it's a thing.

Typo Boy has proposed the party metaphor before, but now that people have pointed out problems with the government and social capital models, it seems more apt than it did.

Allyson, I think you summed it up nicely, we do have different philosophies. And we are never going to see eye to eye on these issues. I would rather have every citizen get a right, then require some minimum amount of activity/posting/friend-making etc. though I agree that ideally those with more social capital should have a greater say. It's just too hard to find where to draw that line. Of course, that's me again pushing for a solution, and I recognize that.

I do take issue with this:

It seems you spend as much or more time talking about change than you do experiencing the board as it is. This makes me insane.

It's not true. I've been very active, since the first day I registered. First in Firefly, then Buffy and Angel, then a number of the other threads. I've nattered in Natter, litely spoiled in spoilage lite, and Buffisteched, Beeped, and Previouslied as well. In other words, I'm sorry you got the impression that I haven't been experiencing the board, and I know you're not alone. But it's more a result of the (infamous) positions I've taken in this thread than the number of posts I've made here.

So we'll continue to disagree. I'm sorry that my presence makes your experience less enjoyable, and I hope that eventually changes. Because I'm happy to be a part of the community, and I have no plans to leave it.

I don't think just registering is gonna make you a part off the community, but I do think posting, getting to know us on an individual basis, getting known on an individual basis, is what makes someone a Buffista. It's getting to the point where you can go "oh, hey so-and-so is here! blah blah inside joke me too!" and someone else can say the same thing, 'cause they know you. And that can take a while, but that's okay, because I feel that we're worth it.

I really agree with Holli on this. Now, what that means w/r/t voting, etc., I'm not sure. I haven't decided that in my own mind yet.

But when someone posts his/her first post, no matter how friendly and knowledgable, no matter whether they registered and immediately jumped in or if they were a lurker for years, I certainly don't look at Post #1 for New Person and think "Hey, fellow Buffista!" I think "Hey, new person; hope they like it and play with us so I can get to know them."

But, again, I don't know what that means -- in *my* mind -- w/r/t voting.

It's possible that I am more than unusually maudlin today, but prom's in two weeks and I'm in that kind of mindset.

Holli, you and the F2F-ers will be promming it up at the same time!

Holli, you and the F2F-ers will be promming it up at the same time!

Yeah, but sadly not in the same place. You don't even know how bitter I am about that.

I just wanted to chime in and comment on what Allyson said about recognizing trolls within 3 posts, which I assume has come out of her extensive on-line/fandom experience. I found the comment striking in that, while Zoe didn't tweak anything immediately, I think mieskie's very first post set something off in the pit of my stomach. Bad vibes/ dread, I'm not sure exactly what it was, but I got the same damn feeling when schmoker first posted.

Very eerie. This was all back when I was a compulsive lurker, mind you, but I felt like shouting a warning both times it happened. Except, it seemed to me, not my place - and not a good reason to register. And I'm not sure I'd do it if something similar happened now - accusations of trolldom are...bad form? Presumptuous? I don't know - I am still to new too all this as a contributor I think.

Which is why I guess where I thought I actually had something to say, I'm now not so sure I actually did. Except having lurked a few other places very briefly, I do have to say the Buffistas, wherever they have ended up, have been a wonderful anomaly to most of what I've seen on-line. It's what made me finally de-lurk in the first place.