Wolfram. Banning pretty much does mean forever. I don't anyone doubted this when we voted for it. I think it would very unusual for bannings to be reconsidered. I don't want to say never - because I distrust absolutes - but certainly I can't see any reason to even discuss an exception in this case. I mean exceptions might be "I had a brain tumor and now it's been removed". "I was on drugs, and I've been clean for over a year now." "I was an asshole and in the last four months I've leanred not be an asshole" just does not cut it.

And these circumstances are the opposite of a case for an exception. He lied in a way that hurt at least one member of our community badly. He lied in a way that hurt our community badly. I kinda like the second version (schmoker/anathama) but I really would not trust him. I would always wonder when he would pull something again - maybe more successfully because he now understands our community and how to manipulate it. I mean I wouldn't want Joss back if he did what Michael did. This is supposed to be a pleasant place to hang. Letting Michael back in will make it a less pleasant place for a heck of a lot of us. And I know for some folks not letting him back in will do this. But I think letting him in will hurt a lot more folks than not letting him in. And since he is the primary guy who created that situtation, I think not letting him back is the reasonable solution. I'm not saying that letting Michael back in would push me out. But the thought would certainly occur to me.

I second the nomination for Nutty as dictator. t /joke

I think that's a very wise proposal.

Nastiness is bad, but have folks gotten nasty today?

I almost hesitate to describe what struck me as nasty, for fear of reopening cans of worms now that things are settling down again. I'll just say that as someone who mostly just observes this thread, I've been puzzled by the strong reactions to some of Wolfram's posts, though, as you say, most of that has been apologized for. Also, while I think "social capital" is a fascinating topic for academic discussion, I've felt, I dunno, kinda squirmy? about the way it was used today.

Nastiness is bad, but have folks gotten nasty today?

I have to say, I think I've seen nastiness too, not just on this issue, but also with this potential Tim thread.

Like Susan, I am also hesitant to bring up specific examples because that's a can of worms we probably don't need opened.

But what I am trying to point out is that people who voice an extremely minority opinion can sometimes feel an unspoken (or even a spoken) sense of hostility because they dared to voice opinions contrary to the group.

Maybe I'm just imagining it, but maybe I'm not. I know I'm not the only one who has on occasion felt a little intimidated to speak up.

I agree with everything that Nutty said.

As far as I can tell, if 100 people are being .02% hostile, it feels worse than 2 people being .02% hostile.

How do you get those 100 to tone it down without trying to get the two to tone it down too? Good luck with that.

It pretty much always feels worse to be in this sort of minority. But I don't think I've seen a marked difference in any given poster between them as minority member and them as majority member.

Until things escalate, of course, but escalation can be started by either side ...

t dashes in to b'cy, skims, has nothing to say, blows kisses to all and dashes back out

I've been puzzled by the strong reactions to some of Wolfram's posts, though, as you say, most of that has been apologized for.

I do think that there have been some harsh reactions to his posts, although he himself has remained very measured. And I do think the apologies point towards letting things go instead of carrying them on.

I have to say, I think I've seen nastiness too, not just on this issue, but also with this potential Tim thread.

Sean, I specified *today* because I see a distinct shift in tone between yesterday's posts and today's.

I think it's key, when treading in this thread, to distinguish between one day and the next (which admittedly can be hard to do when something is pissing you off), as between one poster and the next, and one issue and the next. And to really avoid taking things personally unless a specific point is being directed at you. Otherwise, hurt feelings tend to accumilate and boil over.

Point taken, Burrell.

And yours as well, ita.

I'll say one thing, this thread has largely cured me of the urge to make "me too" posts. They're hard to resist sometimes, but what in conversation would be one person saying something and a bunch of others nodding comes off as way more aggressive and loud in this context, which contributes to the hurty and/or hostile tone that people sometimes feel.