But that's just my point! You she obeys! She obeys you! There's obeying going on right under my nose!

Wash ,'War Stories'


Boxed Set, Vol. VI: I am not a number, I am a free thread!

A topic for the discussion of Doctor Who, Arrow, and The Flash. Beware possible invasions of iZombie, Sleepy Hollow, or pretty much any other "genre" (read: sci fi, superhero, or fantasy) show that captures our fancy. Expect adult content and discussion of the Big Gay Sex.

Marvel superheroes are discussed over at the MCU thread.

Whitefont all unaired in the U.S. ep discussion, identifying it as such, and including the show and ep title in blackfont.

Blackfont is allowed after the show has aired on the east coast.

This is NOT a general TV discussion thread.


Toddson - Jun 28, 2017 12:29:55 pm PDT #620 of 2020
Friends don't let friends read "Atlas Shrugged"

So much this. I tend to think Doctor Who has been well served by pretty much all of the actors who've been given the opportunity to fill the role (even Jim Broadbent)

ahem ... Colin Baker (local PBS is re-broadcasting old episodes and they've just started his stint so he's fresh in my mind)


billytea - Jun 28, 2017 2:36:03 pm PDT #621 of 2020
You were a wrong baby who grew up wrong. The wrong kind of wrong. It's better you hear it from a friend.

ahem ... Colin Baker (local PBS is re-broadcasting old episodes and they've just started his stint so he's fresh in my mind)

Even him, really. I mean, he's my lowest-rated classic series Doctor, but I mostly blame that on poor choices by JNT and Saward (notably to dress the Doctor like a circus clown, pander to diehard fans at the expense of casual viewers, and make his relationship with Peri functionally indistinguishable from an abusive relationship - oh, and an inexplicable conviction that Pip and Jane Baker could write dialogue). (Notably, Baker himself objected to at least the first and the third, and actually pushed through changes in the third one. He and Peri are much warmer in The Mysterious Planet.)

I have three audio adventures with the Sixth Doctor, and given a better script - and a companion who's happy to stand up to him - his Doctor works fine. (And just to repeat, his audio adventure Jubilee is pretty much the equal of any Dalek adventure out there, and costs less than $3.)


Matt the Bruins fan - Jun 28, 2017 7:12:16 pm PDT #622 of 2020
"I remember when they eventually introduced that drug kingpin who murdered people and smuggled drugs inside snakes and I was like 'Finally. A normal person.'” —RahvinDragand

I don't know, maybe it's strictly due to the writing and direction, but Colin Baker's Doctor just radiated off-putting smugness without any of the charm that made it tolerable in Ten. I like my Doctors arrogant like Hartnell's, Pertwee's, and Capaldi's, but there's a distinction between being convinced you're the smartest person in the room and being convinced you're surrounded by morons who are worthy only of your disdain.


billytea - Jun 29, 2017 12:37:00 am PDT #623 of 2020
You were a wrong baby who grew up wrong. The wrong kind of wrong. It's better you hear it from a friend.

I don't know, maybe it's strictly due to the writing and direction, but Colin Baker's Doctor just radiated off-putting smugness without any of the charm that made it tolerable in Ten. I like my Doctors arrogant like Hartnell's, Pertwee's, and Capaldi's, but there's a distinction between being convinced you're the smartest person in the room and being convinced you're surrounded by morons who are worthy only of your disdain.

Now that is an issue I find very interesting. I agree completely, the arrogant Doctors can have a particular appeal, and that (mostly) doesn't come out in the Sixth Doctor's tenure. I do think that's primarily the fault of JNT and Saward. To take his conceitedness to such levels was mostly JNT's decision in the first place, largely a reaction to the often ineffectual Fifth Doctor. That needs to be offset properly somehow, and they didn't do that.

Pertwee's Third Doctor, I think, provides a reasonable comparison. He was my favourite Doctor when I was younger, but going back and watching through his adventures, I was surprised by how much of an overbearing bully he often was, most frequently towards Jo. He could really be quite unpleasant. (And an unabashed Tory, but that's another matter.)

The reason he got away with it is partly because he was given better-written scripts and production, and partly because he was often put on the back foot (some of Pertwee's best performances). But my thesis is that a lot of it was simply how he was paired with his companions. Liz Shaw and Sarah Jane Smith were perfectly willing to give it back to him when he got stroppy. Jo took a rather different tack and just let it roll off. She acted as though she didn't take his outbursts seriously, which helps lead the audience not to do so either. (It no doubt helped that Jon Pertwee and Katy Manning adored each other.)

The Sixth Doctor, however, was paired with Peri. He violently attacked her in his first adventure, and thereafter when he berated her, she would flinch and cower away from him. She was visibly afraid of him. It's deeply unpleasant to watch. Their relationship did the Sixth Doctor no favours.

I have two particular pieces of evidence to say that given a better companion relationship, the Sixth Doctor works. First is The Mysterious Planet, part 1 of Trial of a Time Lord. Here, his relationship with Peri is much friendlier, and I think the character is distinctly more palatable as a result. (The next adventure, Mindwarp, doesn't work so well for evidence, thanks to its plot and incoherent writing.) And it was Colin Baker who pushed for that change. I think he understood quite well what worked with the kind of character he was being asked to play, and what didn't.

The other is Jubilee. In this audio adventure, his companion is a middle aged historian called Evelyn Smythe. Like Liz Shaw, she doesn't back down when the Doctor gets on a tear; and she can force a bit of mutual respect from him. (The writing is much better too.) Also, without spoiling matters, Baker gets the opportunity to play the Sixth Doctor in some scenes where he's very much been taken down a peg or four, to put it mildly. As with Pertwee, he rises to the occasion.

tl;dr: I largely blame the (very real) problems with the Sixth Doctor partly on poor character creation, partly on bad writing and largely on companion mismatch. The Mysterious Planet indicates that these were indeed key problems. Jubilee indicates that given the chance, Baker can really shine in the role.

He's still my least favourite classic series Doctor, but I think Baker himself got a raw deal.


Matt the Bruins fan - Jun 29, 2017 6:09:55 am PDT #624 of 2020
"I remember when they eventually introduced that drug kingpin who murdered people and smuggled drugs inside snakes and I was like 'Finally. A normal person.'” —RahvinDragand

I will give Baker this, I at least bought him in the role, even if I thought he should have gotten a refund on that regeneration. Matt Smith was only very occasionally able to convince me the character he was playing was actually the Doctor. His tenure was mostly watchable thanks to Karen Gillan and Arthur Darvill.


sumi - Jul 06, 2017 11:34:12 am PDT #625 of 2020
Art Crawl!!!

So, my first doctor was really 9.

That other doctor was Colin Baker?

(I really am clueless.)


Connie Neil - Jul 06, 2017 12:12:56 pm PDT #626 of 2020
brillig

There is also Tom Baker, the Great and Glorious 4th Doctor (my true doctor)


Dana - Jul 06, 2017 12:16:46 pm PDT #627 of 2020
"I'm useless alone." // "We're all useless alone. It's a good thing you're not alone."

Just finished the iZombie finale. Oh, Major, no.


sumi - Jul 06, 2017 12:17:22 pm PDT #628 of 2020
Art Crawl!!!

My BFF in Doctor Who-dom is also a 4th doctor adherent. I believe Sunday nights on PBS in the 70s and 80s were her drug.


Connie Neil - Jul 06, 2017 1:14:23 pm PDT #629 of 2020
brillig

I believe Sunday nights on PBS in the 70s and 80s were her drug.

It was Saturday night, here, we'd gather in the house of someone with decent TV reception and watch that night's half-hour episode.