I was under the impression that I was your big comfy blanky.

Oz ,'Him'


Boxed Set, Vol. VI: I am not a number, I am a free thread!

A topic for the discussion of Doctor Who, Arrow, and The Flash. Beware possible invasions of iZombie, Sleepy Hollow, or pretty much any other "genre" (read: sci fi, superhero, or fantasy) show that captures our fancy. Expect adult content and discussion of the Big Gay Sex.

Marvel superheroes are discussed over at the MCU thread.

Whitefont all unaired in the U.S. ep discussion, identifying it as such, and including the show and ep title in blackfont.

Blackfont is allowed after the show has aired on the east coast.

This is NOT a general TV discussion thread.


Toddson - Oct 23, 2018 5:52:54 am PDT #1121 of 2023
Friends don't let friends read "Atlas Shrugged"

Legends was kind of fun, fwiw.


Jessica - Oct 23, 2018 8:06:00 am PDT #1122 of 2023
And then Ortus came and said "It's Ortin' time" and they all Orted off into the sunset

There was still an overarching self-congratulatory tone going on - not so much touting how much better things are today, as how much better we understand how wrong things were 'back then'.

And also quite a lot of self-congratulatory "Look at how much worse American racism is/was than British racism!"

Like the entire civil rights movement could be stymied by changing a bus timetable.

This is what I mean about Chibnall being a crime drama writer - his focus on exact where/what/when is BIZARRE for Doctor Who in general, and in particular here, because the thing about planned protests is they can be rescheduled.

It felt like a very hamfisted way to teach the audience some Important American History Facts, most of which were wildly out of context, and completely irrelevant to WHY this was an important moment in history. (She changed the universe = there's an asteroid named after her? That's not what changing the universe means!)


Zenkitty - Oct 23, 2018 10:22:02 am PDT #1123 of 2023
Every now and then, I think I might actually be a little odd.

If this were on any other planet the Doctor would have burned it all down. (Or looked on while the oppressed group burned it all down.)

I can't help thinking, The Doctor doesn't have a Prime Directive, or any moral/ethical/social rules he has to follow at all, only their own. Why does he have different rules for Earth? Just because we look like their race, I guess. I'd have a soft spot for a dumber species that looks human, probably. I mean, I like bonobos.


sj - Oct 23, 2018 2:18:53 pm PDT #1124 of 2023
"There are few hours in life more agreeable than the hour dedicated to the ceremony known as afternoon tea."

I feel like Legends went from being the worst of the superhero shows to the best (not including Black Lightning which is an awesome league of it's own). It's silly fun, but it's not trying to be anything else.


billytea - Oct 23, 2018 3:52:15 pm PDT #1125 of 2023
You were a wrong baby who grew up wrong. The wrong kind of wrong. It's better you hear it from a friend.

This is what I mean about Chibnall being a crime drama writer - his focus on exact where/what/when is BIZARRE for Doctor Who in general, and in particular here, because the thing about planned protests is they can be rescheduled.

One of Doctor Who's staples is taking the TARDIS and smashing into an established genre, and I am down with the notion of mashing DW up with a crime drama - but no, this wasn't it. Though now I'm picturing Krasko planning to follow Rosa Parks and ensure through a perpetual series of wacky, contrived coincidences that she never boards a bus again in her life.

I can't help thinking, The Doctor doesn't have a Prime Directive, or any moral/ethical/social rules he has to follow at all, only their own. Why does he have different rules for Earth? Just because we look like their race, I guess. I'd have a soft spot for a dumber species that looks human, probably. I mean, I like bonobos.

Yeah, DW has never really found a comfortable explanation. It starts way back in The Aztecs in the very first year. The crew lands in Tenochtitlan where Barbara gets mistaken for a reincarnated high priestess, Yetaxa, and she resolves to use her authority to end human sacrifice. There's a fantastic confrontation between her and the Doctor about it:

Barbara: "Oh, don't you see? If I could start the destruction of everything that's evil here... then everything that is good would survive when Cortez lands."
The Doctor: "But you can't rewrite history! Not one line!"
...
The Doctor: "Barbara, one last appeal: what you are trying to do is utterly impossible! I know, believe me, I know!"
Barbara: "... Not Barbara; Yetaxa."

Their initial solution was to claim that changing history was literally impossible. (And Barbara fails to change anything.) Not really sustainable given the wild abandon with which the Doctor interfered on every other planet. In the next season, they have the Doctor being responsible for burning down Rome during the reign of Nero. So now they can affect things, but only to make them match our history books.

That season ends, however, with The Time Meddler, in which another Time Lord is actively trying to change Earth's history. (It's set in 1066, he's trying to destroy Harald Hardrada's invasion fleet so a fresh Harold the Saxon will defeat William of Normandy at Hastings. Just for the lulz, apparently.) They stop him, of course; but there's never any suggestion that his plan is impossible. He could easily change the whole course of human history. Which means the Doctor could too. (The first ep, by the way, has some great dialogue, as the Doctor deals with a sceptical new companion. For instance:

"That is the dematerializing control, and that over yonder is the horizontal hold, up there is the scanner, those are the doors, and that is a chair with a panda on it. Sheer poetry, dear boy. Now please stop bothering me."

[Steven does not accept a Viking helmet as proof that they have travelled through time] "What do you think it is, a space helmet for a cow?"

Doctor Who had done six historicals before then, and initially this adventure looks pretty much like it'll be "Doctor Who and the Saxons", until the first ep cliffhanger, where the Doctor discovers that the chanting monks of the local monastery are actually a gramophone record. After playing the first six historicals completely straight, that would've been quite the surprise, I think. There were five more historicals, the last in 1966; For the entire remainder of the classic series, the whole issue is just nullified. Of the subsequent 128 adventures, I count only 14 set in (or involving) Earth's history, and all but one of them have the Doctor defending the past from an alien threat.


billytea - Oct 23, 2018 3:52:15 pm PDT #1126 of 2023
You were a wrong baby who grew up wrong. The wrong kind of wrong. It's better you hear it from a friend.

It's not until the new series that it's addressed again. Davies basically came up with the idea of "fixed points in time" - there are occasions of particular significance where changing history would cause tremendous damage to the timeline, and that's why the Doctor doesn't meddle in our established events. (The first series' ep Father's Day indicates dire consequences should that happen.) Moffat was more laid back about this, but it seems Chibnall is down with it.

It's a pretty inadequate explanation. Ultimately the real reason the Doctor doesn't go back and topple the Nazis/end the slave trade/stop any of history's wars and massacres is that it's not something Doctor Who as a show can do. And that's fine, shows are allowed to have limitations. But maybe it's not the savviest move to go drawing attention to them.

I feel like Legends went from being the worst of the superhero shows to the best (not including Black Lightning which is an awesome league of it's own). It's silly fun, but it's not trying to be anything else.

Speaking of changing timelines...


Steph L. - Oct 24, 2018 6:21:47 am PDT #1127 of 2023
Unusually and exceedingly peculiar and altogether quite impossible to describe

After this week's Arrow, I have done a 180 on the flash-forwards. I like them, mostly because I like William. It turns out I just don't like present-day kid!William. I'm curious how far in the future this is -- over on io9, they said 20 years, but William seems too young for that.

I'm still loving Black Lightning, but this week's episode crammed in WAY too much stuff and it felt like a lot of stuff happened off camera that we had to make assumptions about. Like, Black Lightning confronted Khalil and tried to get him to give up Tobias, and then the police ambushed Tobias. But based on Jefferson's reaction to Handerson telling him that they caught Tobias, clearly Khalil didn't tell Black Lightning where Tobias was. I'm assuming it was Khalili who dropped a dime on Tobias, but...to the police?

And it was really jarring to introduce this psychic lady (who I assume is a meta), who we've never heard about before. I mean, I understand why they didn't tell Jennifer (though that was pretty shitty), but I feel like that's something the audience should have known about ahead of time. Are there other metas out there with convenient super powers that Jefferson (or maybe Gambi?) knows about but hasn't mentioned, that they'll suddenly introduce when the plot requires it?

Still loving the show overall, though. I can't imagine what their budget is for the music, but it's perfect.


Toddson - Oct 24, 2018 11:48:40 am PDT #1128 of 2023
Friends don't let friends read "Atlas Shrugged"

I did a lot of handwaving for this episode ... I'm hoping that there will be explanations.

And Legends ... they left out all the MUD!


Jessica - Oct 24, 2018 1:19:51 pm PDT #1129 of 2023
And then Ortus came and said "It's Ortin' time" and they all Orted off into the sunset

I'm still loving Black Lightning, but this week's episode crammed in WAY too much stuff

Agree, but since I'm watching for the family dynamics I generally just let the plotty bits wash over me and if I happen to understand what's going on, bonus.


Dana - Oct 27, 2018 7:44:43 am PDT #1130 of 2023
I'm terrifically busy with my ennui.

The best part of this week's Doctor Who was the Banksy jokes.

Do you know how hard it is to explain Legends of Tomorrow to someone who comes in in the middle of an episode?