Well, ABC Family's not a network, and I don't see why it has to be a drama, but how about The Killing, The Big C, L&O SVU, Nurse Jackie, or Damages. You're unnecessarily limiting it to a very small sample size of female-led dramas, of which there are fewer than ten, I'd wager. But you started your argument by claiming that because Sutton Foster hasn't done a lot of television, it's because of her looks, which is most likely not true. The fact is that with fewer than ten female-led network dramas out there, there are gonna be thousands of stunning women who haven't had that opportunity either.

Wow- I did not see bunheads yet, but I never thought of Sutton Foster as plain. Certainly no plainer than Patti Lupone (who I do not think is plain) who was probably below Suton's level of Broadway success at the time of Life Goes On.

I also seriously underestimate the level of famousness of Broadway people-- see my astonishment at Tony Vincent being on The Voice. Dude was Judas on Broadway, St. Jimmy in American Idiot on Broadway, and Simon in JCS filmed for PBS.

Also, here is Sutton Foster, her ex-Husband Christian Borle (famous for the "That's on Ebay commercials" and MEgan MacGinnis singing a fun song: [link]

Well, ABC Family's not a network

Clearly. This is also part of my point. I'm saying that Kathy Bates is a standout in the landscape, because she's female, older, not that pretty, and a network lead. I didn't expand it to comedies because I don't know much about them.

I'm confused. It's not just that other women are getting the roles over the plainer women, it's that women aren't getting roles period. But if you think it's just as easy for a older, plainer woman to get a leading role as anyone else, I'm not going to argue with you. I won't agree with you either, though.

you started your argument by claiming that because Sutton Foster hasn't done a lot of television, it's because of her looks

No, I didn't. Because I have no idea if she's had any interest in doing TV, do I? The point I throw out there, that you don't get your pick of lead roles if you're not H'wood pretty (and young don't hurt) isn't something it's possible to either prove or disprove with information I have available to me. But since female actors in general do claim that they age out pretty dramatically, and with TV's overall homogeneity of looks, I do feel comfortable with the assertion that older and plainer female actors have a less easy time getting high profile work.

Yes, Cass, absolutely. And happy birthday!

Happy Cass Day!

I was just reading a comic page where the father is encouraging the son with the archetype of John Wayne. Are there any contemporary actors that you can use as metonyms for their heroic roles in a similar way?

Who else ever besides John Wayne was like that?

Randolph Scott, maybe, but that's a LOOOOONG time ago.

There might be some people left over who aren't doing the Chuck Norris thing ironically, but since he was representing himself as a spokesperson for a martial arts, it's a bit different. Dunno--maybe Errol Flynn and Bogey, etc, were the packages that H'wood was selling?

I have told the nut shot guy that it's been suggested he's a troll. The point where he names his two senseis and says he's never heard of such nonsense as groin strikes--well, that's where I tell him that him being a troll is the polite interpretation of what's going on.

Betty White and Sarah Michelle Gellar handling a giant snake </random>