It's like, in the middle of all this, I'm paranoid that you'll think I don't like poetry.

Buffy ,'Empty Places'


Natter 69: Practically names itself.  

Off-topic discussion. Wanna talk about corsets, duct tape, or physics? This is the place. Detailed discussion of any current-season TV must be whitefonted.


amyth - Oct 19, 2011 11:05:49 pm PDT #2332 of 30001
And none of us deserving the cruelty or the grace -- Leonard Cohen

Allyson, so sorry your family has to deal with so much crap right now. Same for you, brenda.

Kat, that article is so utterly devastating. I read it when you linked it on Facebook a couple of days ago, and just cried at my desk. And yeah, the line about parents being a reflection of their kids rather than the other way around really stuck with me. And I'm not even a parent!

I was definitely one of those kids who was praised early and often for being smart, and then had a rude awakening in college (or a series of brutal rude awakenings). I learned to read at three, got pegged early on as a smart kid, and coasted on that rep all the way through high school without doing an ounce of work, and had almost no idea how. Or, at least, how to work hard at things I didn't enjoy, or that didn't come easy. And then three weeks after I got to college, my mom was diagnosed with cancer, I was at a huge university where it was easy to disappear, and my family was preoccupied. So I stopped going to class altogether. It took me years to fix the mistakes I made when I was young and traumatized. I'm still working on it, in some ways.


Pix - Oct 20, 2011 1:21:38 am PDT #2333 of 30001
We're all getting played with, babe. -Weird Barbie

ION, gronk. I am in the rental car shuttle on the way to the airport. So. Tired.


Calli - Oct 20, 2011 1:28:48 am PDT #2334 of 30001
I must obey the inscrutable exhortations of my soul—Calvin and Hobbs

Thanks for all the birthday wishes yesterday!

Much coping~ma to your family, Allyson.

My sister and I were both "smart kids" in k-12. When my sister hit high school she took every music course available, four out of five courses her senior year. While she certainly practiced, music came very easy to her, and when college presented her with a challenging academic load (and introduced her to beer) she almost flunked out. So when I got to high school my parents pushed me into every AP and honors course possible, to the point where the guidance councilor was warning them I'd crash and burn. When I got to college Latin gave me some trouble, but on the whole I did OK.

To this day my sister seems to think she's the family dummy, in spite of getting her MA while teaching and raising two kids. (Hell, just keeping a teaching job in MI looks like a genius-level challenge to me). She just made a bad choice or two when she was 16. That's pretty much what 16 is for.


Anne W. - Oct 20, 2011 1:33:26 am PDT #2335 of 30001
The lost sheep grow teeth, forsake their lambs, and lie with the lions.

{{{{{{{Allyson}}}}}}} I don't know what else I could possibly say. I am so sorry.

There are three teachers in my life I will be forever grateful for. My fourth grade art teacher, who wrote on my report card that I was very talented but that I didn't give anywhere near 100% effort. My eight grade guidance counselor, who called me out hard for intellectual arrogance in a way that had a lasting impact. My junior year history teacher, who basically said that because I had good ideas and could phrase them well, no one one had called me out on the fact that my papers had no overall structure. From them, I got the message loud and clear that talent did not exempt me from work, and it certainly did not exempt me from working at being a good person.


Theodosia - Oct 20, 2011 2:15:45 am PDT #2336 of 30001
'we all walk this earth feeling we are frauds. The trick is to be grateful and hope the caper doesn't end any time soon"

When I went back to school and took a programming course (and in fact, managed to take it 2 and a half times) I was truly shocked by how "hard" it was... until I realized that it had been so long since I'd run into programming problems that I couldn't comprehend and fix immediately. It took an effort to let go of my self-judgement and accept that I was adrift in a sea of concepts that I had to conquer.

Sticking with it though -- led me to having a series of what I've heard a dog trainer call "Helen Keller moments" where concepts snap into place and you can suddenly grok a paradigm of how things work and how you'll make them work.


Kat - Oct 20, 2011 3:46:17 am PDT #2337 of 30001
"I keep to a strict diet of ill-advised enthusiasm and heartfelt regret." Leigh Bardugo

Helen Keller moments are a cool idea. I talk about the concept of "yet" a lot. I tell them learning is funny -- that you start with a sense that you get it, then you hit a roadblock and suddenly it's all confusion and you have to roll around in that mire and much and you feel like you don't get it. But it's just that you don't get it yet. Then things click and you've mastered it.

Atul Gawande has a lovely essay on this idea around practice.

I haven't ever been praised for being smart, at least by parents. But I also don't like not being good at things quickly. I have been flirting with retaking math classes so that I can retake chem and organic chem so that I can either be an RN or a respiratory therapist. God knows I have a lot of practical experience.


Jessica - Oct 20, 2011 3:48:49 am PDT #2338 of 30001
And then Ortus came and said "It's Ortin' time" and they all Orted off into the sunset

I had my lazy-smart-kid awakening in 7th grade, when I went to an incredibly tough math/science magnet school and went from being a straight-A student to getting C's and D's just because my study habits were so atrocious.

But then I didn't test into the magnet high school that would have been the natural next step, so high school and college were, in comparison, a total breeze.

Now as an adult, I wish I'd challenged myself much more in college. I can't completely regret my choices because if I'd enrolled as an engineering major I probably would have lived on north campus and never would have met DH, but when I look at what I do for a living and think about what value it adds to society...bleh.

Kristin, you might be interested in a book called Why We Cooperate (which you can get as a free PDF here [link] ) - it talks a lot about Dweck's research into early child development and sort of dismantles the "Spelke now, Dweck later" line of thinking. (Or is it "Early Spelke, later Dweck"? Can't remember the exact phrasing.)


Kat - Oct 20, 2011 3:59:00 am PDT #2339 of 30001
"I keep to a strict diet of ill-advised enthusiasm and heartfelt regret." Leigh Bardugo

Another great book is Nurtureshock. They talk about Dweck's research there, but they also debunk a bunch of other pseudoscience myths, like spanking is bad, or violence on TV is worse than children's programming.

Great book.


sumi - Oct 20, 2011 4:10:38 am PDT #2340 of 30001
Art Crawl!!!

Baby dolphin!


Fred Pete - Oct 20, 2011 4:24:51 am PDT #2341 of 30001
Ann, that's a ferret.

It looks like Khaddafy has been captured and may be dead.