Liese, I'm grateful you made your post. I nodded right along as I was reading, I'm not far off your points myself, most of them. The thing that impresses me, over and over again, is how the Christians I knew growing up embraced other ideas and welcomed and worked with most people to accomplish things, no matter that those people had a different approach to life. Everyone accepted that people needed to be cared for, everybody had work to do, a right to succeed, to eat, to have clean clothes, shoes that fit, a way to school, the teacher's attention, and to see a doctor when they needed to. I'm sure there was some exclusivity, some prejudice, that as a child I was unaware of. But I grew up believing that every person had the same worth, had something to contribute, some thought to consider, some idea to welcome to make things better for everybody.

I don't believe that's the definition and description that comes to mind today for people calling themselves Christian. But you know, it should be.

Liese, I too loved your post and am humbled by the elequence of your views.

Being a lapsed Catholic - UU-er turned away from predatory sexuality in that community- married to an avowed atheist- living in Louisiana, I have a lot of mixed up feelings about organized religion, Christianity, and spirituality. I have far too much cynicism regarding the "Religious Right" as a political force in this country and the horrible, soulless patriarchy of the Vatican and its foul denials and coverups of its institutional culture of sustaining child rape.

I know spiritual beauty can be found in people and communities of every religion. But power corrupts and I have a great deal of anger and sadness about that.

At the end of the day, though, it's that I weep for humanity, regardless of what country or creed we're talking about.

I guess I do believe in fighting the good fight and working to help your chosen community. And I do take joy and satisfaction in that. I don't expect much more out of life and I am always more surprised by a hug than a slap.

I cannot believe I typed that whole previous post on my phone when my laptop was right beside me.

Anyway, when it comes down to it, I guess it's that I distrust institutions in general.

Yeah, definitely agree that institutions as a whole are prone to being problematic. It's the Soylent Green problem (they're made of people).

And smonster, thank you, but it's not necessary. The discourse on this board is helpful to me, and you have all earned your right to be angry at the church (not that you need me to say it). So I don't need a different word for the kind of Christian I am, because unfortunately I am a part of that greater whole that I believe contains a large passive and/or underinformed middle ground (who I think could be galvanized to action if they understood) , and radicals all around the edges like me and like the wingnuttier side of things. A large part of my work is focused outside of the church, of course, but I also regard it as my job to stand inside the church and wrestle.

Anyway, I appreciate all your thoughts. Now I have to go get the cigar box guitar I made tuned by the one of the best blues guitarists I've ever heard or the violin player from my favorite former Celtic punk band.

Wow, almost every single word that Liese said. I just point upward and say, "yeah, that."

And may I add that I have never felt any "Christian persecution" in Bitches, and the one time I did, a smidge, in Natter, I mentioned it and it led to much thoughtful discussion (as things are wont to do, here).

it led to much thoughtful discussion (as things are wont to do, here)

...almost an hour ago...I jinxed Bitches! I'm sorry! Come back!

We are all ded from hot.

Come back anyway - I'm sure you're all charming and erudite and snarky ghosts!

Getting flooring estimate now. He's doing the math. Eeep.

Deep breaths, o_a, deeeep breaths.