Also: my floors are clean, I swam a bloody slow 2 miles (1m/lap?! What's up? Actually, I think it is the pool is too warm, I swim faster when it is cool.) and my bistro set is drying from its final lindseed oil slathering before going out on the desk for the season.

I think I'll go buy a pretty pot (since the last broke in a storm) and flowery thing to put on the table tomorrow.

Standard joke among liberal quakers and UU: basically the same people, but Quakers like to sit around in silence and UU never shut up.

I think I may have to visit some Quakers sometime. Assuming they're okay with knitting during said silence.

Just DON'T go to a "programmed" meeting. Those are preacher types.

My meeting in Las Cruces put up with my dad's snoring. (He, even back then, was pretty adamantly anti-religion. But he agreed with their social justice movement, and since he wasn't being preached at... he refused to sit on any committees, though.)

It's all about finding the right meeting.

I see God/ess as the ultimate shoulder to lean/cry on. She can't change what's happening, but the hugs are terrific. It's helped me feel not quite so alone in various dark nights of the soul.

Good to know. Thanks. I'm pretty happy with my UUs, and I'm not even sure there are any Quakers in Fort Wayne. But, should I move (or visit somewhere), I'll keep that in mind, because, yeah, being preached at would be a turn-off.

I thought there were a few books and some texts of the OT in Aramaic. Not a lot, to be sure but a few passages, originally.

I think a good church is good for children, it gives them a sense of a wider world beyond their family. They develop personal relationships with adults besides their parents who have other opinions and politics and moods. It gives them a forum in which to figure out The Big Things with people besides their parents. And its an opportunity to interact with kids of different ages than their own -- in school or sports we were all the same age and sometimes gender but in youth group or choir there was a broader range.

When I got to college I *was* shocked that there were people who, say, in the name of Christianity didn't believe in evolution, but I wasn't shocked that there were other opinions in the world. A lot of my classmates were pretty stunned that ______ isn't just "the way it is".

I'm sure there are non-religious communities that can provide that same broader experience for a child, but none spring to mind. Maybe a very active community center or social club.

I thought there were a few books and some texts of the OT in Aramaic. Not a lot, to be sure but a few passages, originally.

IIRC, the deal with Aramaic is that chunks of the Bible were written in Hebrew and Greek about things that had happened to Aramaic speakers -- so an understanding of that initial translation from the oral tradition is pretty important.

Why do you suppose that is?

I think it was after Prop 8 that I shifted toward a more hostile place. "Oh, it isn't that YOU are a homophobic, sexist, racist piece of shit, it's that GOD is, so, you know, you don't have to take any responsibility for subjugating people. That's so convenient!"

That's where my head went. Following that were the promise keeper kind of assholes where daddy grooms his daughters to be subservient, creationism in schools, attacks on Planned Parenthood, blah blah god-as-excuse-for-anti-intellectualism.

So I was getting angrier at religion. And then I started hanging out with cosmologists and astronomers and biologists, and nothing about a "creator" made any sort of sense.

I started to find it offensive and a sort of denial of how precious and rare the planet/universe/humans are. I found comfort in Sagan's pale blue dot.

I have a hard time grasping the idea that people I love and think are incredibly bright and rational in so many ways believe a virgin had a baby named god, or that there's some all-powerful being who gives a rat's ass about whether they eat pork. I'm deflecting my discomfort at saying these things here, among people I respect, with humor. It's where my head goes.

Lately I've been feeling a sense of desperation in regard to my niece and nephew being indoctrinated. It's making it somewhat worse. I feel kind of helpless.

I find Nilly's approach sort of comforting when i get very frustrated. She once told me a sort of proverb, that no one can know god's scorecard. I often think that if more religious people walked that walk, the world would be so much better. But I don't know.

Allyson, I find a lot of comfort in the fact that I know some incredibly smart people who happen to believe in god but they also believe in me and respect me. It makes me respect them. The rest, I can ignore most of the time.