These days, close-mindedness in general pisses me off more than religious nutbagerry. It's the climate-change denialism, the conservatives who won't face reality but instead engage in magical thinking about the budget, etc., and the whole anti-science thing on the right (and somewhat on the left, but the political effects of that are nowhere near as bad).

Sometimes I think we're just too stupid as a species to survive. We evolved to deal with short-term threats, and it seems we as a nation (and world) just can't prepare for the long-term threats.

Anyway, just rambling here....

I was raised Southern Baptist, H was raised Byzantine (not Roman, not orthodox, yet another offshoot) Catholic. We were both indeterminate when our kids were growing up. I wanted them to have a childhood grounding in the Christian faith because it had been comforting for me in confusing times as a child, because it gave me something concrete to rebel against in adolescence, and because having some knowledge of both Old and New Testaments gave me a comparison point when exploring and discovering other religions. H was in full rebellion against any organized religion at the time, and when StE, at 9, objected to spending his Sunday mornings in church, H told both kids they didn't have to go.

Both of them retained those Sunday School teachings into their teens and twenties. I've seen and heard both of them counsel a peer in religious confusion from a place of compassion, with a broader overview. I've seen them take an aggressive street evangelist down verbally in scripture quotage. One classifies himself as a Zen Jedi, the other was a compassionate a-theist when he married a woman who couldn't tell you what the Christmas story was. He was a moral, ethical man who died with no particular faith.

His ex has since married a succession of fundamentalists (it's about the only religion available in the wide place in the road they call a town), and now, though she hasn't formally been "born again," she's working hard to present that public appearance. One grandson has bailed at 17, the ten-year-old is under forced indoctrination. He's trying hard to remember the benevolent open-heartedness he remembers in his dad, but it's difficult. The ex remembers that I was a practicing pagan when last she knew me, and she knows StY is no Christian, either. So she's being extra militant about what we can and cannot discuss with the kid. We're not to tell him different than what their church says, not to provide alternate information, or food for thought. And she can keep us from seeing him, for the next five years, at least.

Religion. I don't think it means what it was originally supposed to mean. Rather than worship and an expression of gratitude and an umbrella of charity to the less fortunate, it's become another means of divisiveness and an excuse for treating people we don't like, or who don't agree with us, badly.

and somewhat on the left, but the political effects of that are nowhere near as bad

Anti-science attitudes don't have to be political to be harmful - antivax activism kills more people than creationism.

Yeah, good point.

I think the global warming deniers trump both.

Pantheists represent. I am one with all the universe and all humanity, and man, part of me is freaking CRAZY, yo.

That's part of our charm, right? The freaking CRAZY? Plus the part where we don't tell other people what to believe or not believe?

At one point in my 20s, I went to the hospital, and they asked me what religion I was, and I blurted out “Atheist”, and that was that. Hasn’t been a big deal for me since.

I have issues with the authenticity of the Bible - how can we know what we read today is what was really written and what was meant to be? There has been so much time and so many people between then and now.

I was raised Southern Baptist, I haven't agreed with that for a very long time. But I've always asked those unanswerable questions that some people can just take on faith. Questions like -what happens to all the people who never got to here about Jesus? Do they go to hell? If Adman and Eve were the only humans and then they had children - who did their children marry?

I've also heard various forms of what salvation means - one church (I went to 1 service and nearly left in the middle) they were preaching that being overweight is a sin against God. The local paper did a big expose on that particular church as being part of a cult. I heard from another (non cult) church that you get 1 chance and that's it at salvation. Basically if Jesus knocks and you don't answer (or realize he's at the door) you're screwed. You may later decided to accept Jesus and *think* you are saved. But you aren't. God doesn't forgive you for that.

I've heard all you have to do is be saved and anything that happens after is forgiven. Or/unless you deny God's existence at any point in your life. Again that's totally unforgivable. So if you are an atheist and then come to Jesus, you aren't really saved.

Then I have a huge issue with churches being bullies and hurting people. And also how so many church people end up being liars or bullies. I've had the experience of knowing someone was a youth pastor and seeing them lie about things. Not an "oh I forgot" but straight up, bald faced, asked a question and lied. Putting someone else - who was standing right there! - in the position of looking like a liar.

But then I hate to see atheists to good people who are believers or make fun of them.

It's interesting to read that many move to atheism as they age. I think I'm moving to the other direction. I think I'd like to start taking Noah and Grace to church. There are many things I am willing to relax about and my intense anti-religion, atheist stance is one of those.

I think my biggest issues is that like most of the medieval catholics, I just don't think there is an allmighty power that gives a damn about ME personally. My vision of a god, when I really try to envision god, is not of something that cares about my prayers etc.

So, in some ways, I'm the opposite Steph. I think salvation might only be based on good works, or at least the goodness with which we live our daily lives.

Also, Steph, I don't think that the Catholic Church really believes in Purgatory either. Purgatory, historically, comes from Dante more than anything else.

I did find out that the daughter of Mom's best friend is following in the foot steps of the Duggar family. She's got 2 kids, her youngest is about 1 and is expecting. Mom asked "was it planned?" And her friend had to explain that, no it wasn't, that her daughter and SIL are using God as birth control and believe he'll only give them as many children as they can handle.

Mom's friend is having a hard time with this she is a liberal Episcopalian and her daughter went off to a small college and met her husband, who is some form of strict Baptist, and some sort of pastor - youth or music or something - and now she's a good pastor's wife and obeys her husband and all of that. Mom's friend was seriously against this marriage and nearly stopped talking to her daughter until Mom sat her down and had her "which would rather - have a relationship with (insert loved one) or not have a relationship and be 'right' " talk. So now Mom's friend has learned to deal.