I can't believe no one else sees the Tucker Max of "which women are worth treating as human" model of behavior at work.

I've seen it, but fortunately only at something of a remove. In one particular department at work, it seemed as if there was a string of cute, young, petite, blondes who kept getting hired/promoted. Then, the general partner over that area retired. Hmm...

That said, DJ, I have seen that kind of ugliness on the internet in more than one place, usually where there's a shield of anonymity or pseudonymity. It's scary.

Rather, I think a lot of people like to be treated like they were attractive, and that's where a lot of this plays in.

Oh, yes. Very much so. Or maybe not even treated as if they were attractive, but treated as if they mattered.

Those are the more extreme of the things he writes, but that general attitude is so very common.

Smiling is a social lubricant attractive or not. That's just being friendly.

I am talking specifically about being discounted a a person if, in general you aren't sexually attractive to men.

I am talking about my husband telling me I shouldn't have to spend more than 10 minutes getting dressed and I don't have to wear make up or tame my frizzy hair.

Then I have you guys telling me of course I do. That's just the way of the world, and if I am overlooked and ignored, a little wink and some lipgloss might have been my friend.

The whole thing makes me want to say fuck it and quit the world.

You've read most of what I've said wrongly, for the record.

I am talking specifically about being discounted a a person if, in general you aren't sexually attractive to men.

I agree that this is still a problem in society. (It is early, and I'm getting ready for work, so I can't talk much.)

I am talking about my husband telling me I shouldn't have to spend more than 10 minutes getting dressed and I don't have to wear make up or tame my frizzy hair.

Then I have you guys telling me of course I do. That's just the way of the world, and if I am overlooked and ignored, a little wink and some lipgloss might have been my friend.

DI, I am sorry you are getting all of this out of the convo, because I feel your frustrating through the screen. Not to put words in other people's mouths, but you absolutely do not have to make yourself into anything you don't want. And yes, you and your friend and me and ita and everyone, male and female, should be treated equally regardless of outer appearance.

I don't think anyone is disgagreeing with that! I think for myself, I think that people react more positively to what they consider attractiveness, from a COMBINATION of hard-wired biological stuff AND from a shitty holdover antiquated notions of women's value lying...well, not in their heads, and I shared anecdata of my own person choices on how I live as a woman in the world.

Ok, I gotta go to work. Peace out, ye womyn!

DJ, much of what you said resonated with me, and I tried to communicate that in my semi-meara. Even when I had an office job, I never wore makeup, and me doing my hair means wetting it to try and get rid of bedhead.

I'm going to be late to work, or I'd say more.

Also, I can't think who Tucker Max is.

Geraldine Ferraro was far more accomplished than Sarah Palin. But guess who got far and away more press for being a VP candidate?

To be fair, I'm not sure how much of that is Palin being pretty and how much is just that there is so much more press now, in general, than there was when Ferraro was running.

Then I have you guys telling me of course I do. That's just the way of the world, and if I am overlooked and ignored, a little wink and some lipgloss might have been my friend.

That's not how I've read any of this, fwiw.

Oh yeah--it's 6am, I'm on a plane, you bet I'm not wearing makeup and my hair is bedheady. I think most of us were acknowledging the "pretty gets stuff" reality and saying we have occasionally benefitted from it, and are suceptible to it, not that it's RIGHT. I mean, just because I used to occasionally enjoy the street comments when my hood in DC was still hood doesn't mean I don't think street harassment is generally wrong and often creepy or worse, or mean I dint support things like Hollaback, or whatever. Conflicting complicated stuff.

Also, Shir - there was an article in the paper's Sunday travel section about street harassment while traveling and there was a mention of Hollaback Israel.

Wow! That's amazing!

Personally, I'd rather not be kicked anywhere.

Hear hear. But I'm a coward who fears violence.

Oh, I forgot to say, Shir, yes, you totally need to get into that program. And I think you have a really good chance; I mean, your CV is pretty impressive at this point.

My God, it's good to hear this. Thank you.

And I think next year is an East Coast year for the F2F, so it could work out really well for seeing people.

Pfft. Nevermind where the F2F will be. You all know that I'll be there and visiting you when I'll get my ass on your continent, right?

Did you receive the wedding invite? Reply, genius.

No, I have not! But as you know, m'dears, I won't be able to make it. But I still love you two. Let me know when you'll be back in Israel!

And now, my beloved all, I need to get back to cleaning my room and studying your (American) history. And maybe eat something, too. And I want to watch the musical sometimes later tonight. Busy, busy, busy.

I've lost raises because I wasn't doing the whole make up/different shoes every day/lots of fashionable clothes/serious attention to hair thing. One female manager took me aside and said that I really needed to expand my wardrobe, because having two weeks worth of distinct professional looking outfits for each season (on a $15,000/year salary--I just managed to have one week's worth of outfits), was a requirement for any woman who wanted to get ahead. This was the office where a female coworker who had major foot surgery was given a written reprimand for not wearing pumps a week later.

Meanwhile my male manager could wear the same trousers three days a week, and as long as he changed his shirt and tie and shaved every other day he was fine.

So, yes, I have paid a literal price for not adhering to the expensive and fairly arbitrary rules of proper female appearance. I've found the rules are a lot less strict in the non-profit sector, but that salaries there are--surprise--lower. Totally worth it to have the option of wearing my birkies every day, though.

Why does someone not own this? Jilli?