Okay, that makes sense to me. I understand that viewpoint.

I had a pretty big chip on my shoulder about churches while holding the belief, so I can see having a chip about religion while acting the, err, acts.

The son of one of our missionary buddies, who is one of Dave's closest friends, is an agnostic. But he lives a more Christian life than pretty much all the Christians I know. His rejection of Christianity had more to do with Christians than Christ; i.e. if Christians really believed what they said they did, they would have to lead radical lives, desperate to save people. But since they don't, he felt that Christians must not believe either, so why should he? That does his carefully thought-out views some disservice, because there's more to it than that, but that's the crux.

So I can understand acting without belief.

O, I have thoughts. But I also need to sleep. So later.

Perkins, the Watermelon Rind is gorgeous! I was seriously tempted, and may still get it.

Wow, that's a load of purples--you could do this whole shaded effect from nail to nail to nail. Pretty!

I got Dorothy Who and Eyes Like Sapphires from the same place. I'm not sure I don't like Eyes better.

So I can understand acting without belief.

You'll know the presence of the spirit by its fruit...

Which is sort of my litmus test in matters religious. If those things are motivating your life, regardless of your beliefs, I'm going to respect your actions and see them as somehow... sacred.

Paul had his moments.

[Deleted over-sharing.]

If those things are motivating your life, regardless of your beliefs, I'm going to respect your actions and see them as somehow... sacred.

Exactly. This is exactly how I feel.

Obviously, I say this as a person who believes in God. And I believe in a Diety who knows the hearts and minds of humans. I do NOT believe in humans knowing the heart and mind of God.

It is so far beyond our capacity to grasp The Rules that we just need to a) do our best and b) not declare that this person or that person isn't living up to them.

So I feel comfortable saying that priests covering up horrendous crimes are acting (and are subject to motivations) toward the "hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions" and not the "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control" end of the spectrum. And I'm comfortable declaring that REALLY BAD. And they should absolutely be subject to civil law.

But I don't get to speak for what God will/should do to them (and boy COULD I). And nobody else gets to either, about anything.

And nobody else gets to either, about anything.

Oh I think every and anybody gets to speak to what god will do to them/thinks of them. I just think they're no more likely to be right than anyone else.

Growing up Catholic, attending 12 years of Catholic school, it culturally shaped me in ways that are important and relevant and necessary. In terms of academics, bar none, being raised Catholic helped me understand a lot of literature, particularly early modern, in ways that non-Catholics don't get.

If nothing else, growing up in a strong religion gave me something to rebel against. Unfortunately, I didn't get the academically rigorous Cahtolic education. I think even if there'd been a Catholic school available, I wouldn't have been sent there, so traumatised by nuns was my mother.

I got a pretty decent protestant education in the process of debating things with my dad. I sometimes wish I'd had a bit of time in Catechism or whathaveyou to get a handle on saints for art and early literature symbolism purposes. But I haven't wished it enough to do anything about it.

I went to Catholic school and don't regret the education at all. At this point I'd like to put Bobby in Catholic HS in Fort Lauderdale. The tuition is $2000 more a year if you aren't Catholic. My sister said just to stop by and 'join' my mom's church, but he isn't Baptized and I don't feel quite right about pretending. He often goes to mass in Otter Lake, but not here.

The last 2 pastors of my neighborhood are in jail. Not from that kind of abuse, but for stealing millions from the collection basket and spending it on hookers and cruises and gambling trips, etc. The one pastor retired and the replacement took up where he left off. A stream of parishioners testified about what wonderful humans they were to try and get the sentence reduced. The judge was outraged and basically told them they were fools not to be demanding tougher sentences.

eta: the word sentence looks wrong to me like it should be spelled differently for crime stuff