"The Secret" makes me flip out like a mammal.

'The Secret' is a book I find highly irritating for that reason. The idea that you can create exactly the kind of life you want for yourself, is hugely condemning, on the flip-side, of anyone whose life is less straightforward than this. There's a strong thread of belief, both religious and secular, in society at the moment that says: YOU should be working harder to be more healthy, happy and successful.

In Skinny Bitch (which is a horrible horrible book in many ways), there's a chapter on general health stuff. They take this a step further and claim that the specific body parts that have problems are influenced by the way the person lives her life. Like, a woman who stays with a verbally abusive boyfriend gets breast cancer, because she's not taking care of her feminine needs. I can't remember the other examples, but there was at least one other of a woman not taking care of the feminine parts of her life well enough and then getting ovarian cancer.

This is a fascinating discussion. The petitional prayer ... I remember someone telling a story about a woman going to her minister and saying that she'd been praying for a Cadillac, but hadn't gotten one and asking if God didn't answer all prayers. And the minister replied that he did ... and that in this case the answer was no.

I do hate the things that say if you pray hard enough and believe strongly enough things will go well for you. It seems to put such a burden on people.

And Ginger, I'm sorry that the phrase "after a long battle" hits you that way. Is it any help to remember that sometimes we lose battles?

Gah. I want to jump in a wayback machine and hug your mom and hold her hand and slap everyone who ever drilled that poison into her.

Me, too. The thing is, her faith also sustained her through some very difficult times in her childhood, and I believe she achieved what she'd prayed for at that time (I say achieved because she worked for what she wanted as well as prayed for it). So I can see the root of some of her attitude. But it took an unfortunate turn in there somewhere.

Lots of times, prayer for me works the same way. Saying the prayers for the agricultural stuff over and over gets me so that, when I look at food, I automatically think about the field and the rain and the workers, rather than about the grocery store or the microwave. Saying the prayers about creation helps a bit toward getting my reaction to flowers to be, "Ooh, new life!" rather than "Ugh, pollen." And I think that I should think about the rain and the workers, and I should appreciate the flowers, and prayer is one thing that helps me do that.

Yes! This! While my prayers/magic ceremonies have had many goals, the results have involved changing me and my awareness of the world as much as changing the world around me. And I can see where atheists and agnostics might believe that I'm changing my own self, but I'm fine with that idea, too.

I have nothing of substance to add, and huge points to all of you who are discussing religion in such a sensible and considerate manner.

(Though I totally called the missed field goal and the last interception by the Saints)

I'm not sure how else you explain that missed field goal except as the hand of Jesus nudging that football to the right.

I'm not sure how else you explain that missed field goal except as the hand of Jesus nudging that football to the right.

Well it was obviously because I waited to have my second shot until the second half, wore my necklace and had Jon wear his Saints hat and not the jersey because we were not playing at home, and I've been a good girl and not used the P word all season. Obviously, duh.

When I finally joined a church (after years of facetiously describing myself as a lapsed Unitarian) I did so because I found a home. I found a community where I could belong. The church I joined is Episcopalian and I describe it as being theologically conservative and socially and politically liberal. The congregation is mostly middle class, although there are a number of political movers and shakers and occasional homeless people. What still moves me is that during my baptism part of the service has God saying, "this is my beloved child with whom I am well pleased". It's brought me comfort and happiness. I do pray, but I don't really expect an answer; perhaps the act of praying itself gives me what I need.

perhaps the act of praying itself gives me what I need.

This most accurately sums up my thoughts on prayer.

Whenever people talk about prayers being answered, I am reminded of this joke.

One day, there was a huge rainstorm, and it was clear that there would be flooding. A very devout man lived in this town. His neighbor stopped by and said "we're going out of town, would you like a ride?" He said "no, God will take care of me". The water began to rise. When it was up to the second floor of his house, a man came by in a boat, and said "I have room if you want to come with me" And the man said "no, God will take care of me". Finally, the water had risen so high that he was sitting on his roof. A helicopter flew over and they threw down a ladder, saying "climb up!" he said, "no, God will take care of". And so the water rose, and he drowned. When he got to heaven, he said "God, why didn't you take care of me" and God said "I sent a neighbor, a boat and a helicopter, what else did you want!"

Which I take to mean that, if you pray, you need to pay attention and take opportunities as they present themselves, because God doesn't always work in flashes of lightning and angels.

And Ginger, I'm sorry that the phrase "after a long battle" hits you that way. Is it any help to remember that sometimes we lose battles?

History rarely celebrates the achievements of the losing side.

You've had an unfortunate abundance of health problems too. Did you ever really feel you were actively battling your way to health? From my point of view, I felt like I did help pick a path, but after that my job was to put one foot in front of the other. It was nothing so active or heroic as battle.