I grok a lot of softer BDSM stuff, Tep, and even enjoy it personally, but there is a point at which my mind says "I cannot fathom that there is pleasure in this" in hardcore print/video/movies.

Oh, I'm right there with you. But I figure as long as people are consenting, and I don't have to see it, then if they're into toy boats (or whatever), then right on for them.

Andrea Dworkin. Which is not, actually, what Dworkin said, but it always gets attributed to her.

I was just coming back to post Andrea Dworkin! Cause I went and asked my co-worker. What did she really say? I'm very interested cause I took great exception to that.

Wikipedia actually seems to have the right info: [link]

Ha! Tep beat me to the same wiki cite.

(STILL NOT WORKING)

Awesome, thanks Steph. And amych (STILL NOT WORKING!)

Same co-worker told me about a panel she got to attend at the University of Michigan on prostitution with Dworkin, MacKinnon, and several actual prostitutes/call girls. She said it was the most awesome discussion she ever got to see.

the women made most of the decisions as to how to dance, what songs, what outfits, hours, etc

There are clubs that don't run that way?

There are clubs that don't run that way?

No idea, but I think the general idea of strip clubs is the slimy owner making girls work to pay back their stage time and being generally gross. Like she said, one club does not make a study, and I'm sure there are clubs out there that are really gross, but she said this one wasn't.

She also said that the number of college students in there was no urban myth. Most of the girls she worked with were enrolled in day classes.

But I figure as long as people are consenting, and I don't have to see it, then if they're into toy boats (or whatever), then right on for them.

Oh, for certain. I am usually very interested in learning of people's love of toy boats, but I may not want to watch the regatta.

She also said that the number of college students in there was no urban myth.

Two of the girls in my classes at college were strippers. Mind you, they were pretty emotionally screwed-up, and did not turn to stripping to pay for tuition, but because they were looking for validation and attention.

That is my experience as well. Hell, that was me. Everywhere I ever worked, we got to pick our own music if we felt like it (sometimes the DJ would get to know your vibe and play stuff you liked). The only thing we really paid for was tipping out the house mom and DJ, and that was based on how much you made. We always wore whatever we wanted. Also, not a lot of bitches. We pretty much looked after each other.

There was a friend of a friend in college who was a stripper. She was a women's studies major. (I can't really call her a friend, even though we hung out together a lot -- we hated each other, but were both friends with a bunch of the same people, so we ended up hanging out a lot.)

She admitted that one establishment was not a "study", but that in general, the women made most of the decisions as to how to dance, what songs, what outfits, hours, etc and that she felt more empowered at that job than most of the other ones she'd had. So she finds it hard to hate the adult industry in general as a Feminist.

This was my experience also. Different clubs have different rules and some expect things of their girls that I wouldn't do, but I never knew of a club where the girls couldn't leave and find one that suited them better (not that such don't exist, but such exploitation is a separate issue from the average strip club). I sure as fuck felt more empowered then, as a woman and a person, when I was strutting around on stage, with men handing me money just to get me to smile at them, making a couple hundred bucks tax-free in a few hours, and as long as I showed up when I was scheduled and gave the club their cut and didn't do anything illegal on the premises, I could do pretty much whatever the hell I wanted, than I felt, say, this morning, talking to my insane boss and trying to squeeze out from between the rock and the hard place she'd put me in, and if I leave? I'm screwed; I can't go to a different publishing house and get basically the same thing I have here. I'm far more boxed in, and treated much more as a disposable replaceable commodity to be loaded with work to the point where I break*, in the corporate culture where I work now, than in the fringe-of-society culture where I worked then. Sure, there were men who treated me with contempt and some who even tried to hurt me, a couple times, but that didn't happen because I was a stripper, it happened because they were fuckwads. And I had a lot more protection instantly available then than I would have now: vigilant bouncers, other co-workers, friendly bikers, and regular customers who didn't want anyone messing with their favorite girl, have all come to my rescue. Police, and feminists, NSM.

• My boss actually said this morning, and I quote, "I'm going to break you. I'm going to break you like a horse."

If I still had the body for it, I don't know if I'd still be working in the sex industry in some capacity, but it's possible. I liked it.

I'll decide if I'm empowered. Nobody else gets to tell me what I should or should not be doing with my own body, whether they like it or not. If Ms. Feminist thinks her marriage will be wrecked if her husband looks at a stripper, she should tell him to stay out of strip joints. Her fucked-up marriage is not my problem. (And women who think strippers are trying to sleep with their men? Hilarious. Totally missing the point, there, ladies.)