consent implies full knowledge beforehand.
How full is full? You can consent to sex with someone you've just met, I think. How much knowledge is necessary before you can be said to be consenting?
Gunn: The final score can't be rigged. I don't care how many players you grease, that last shot always comes up a question mark. But here's the thing. You never know when you're taking it. It could be when you're duking it out with the Legion of Doom, or just crossing the street deciding where to have brunch. So you just treat it like it was up to you—the world in balance—'cause you never know when it is.
'Underneath'
Jossverse 1: Emotional Resonance & Rocket Launchers
TV, movies, web media--this thread is the home for any Joss projects that don't already have their own threads, such as Dr. Horrible.
Emily - Feb 25, 2009 7:12:44 am PST #153 of 5827
"In the equation E = mc⬧, c⬧ is a pretty big honking number." - Scola
§ ita § - Feb 25, 2009 7:19:02 am PST #154 of 5827
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.
If you can't identify who's going to shag you, I don't think you can consent, next-guy-to-buy-me-a-drink notwithstanding.
Steph L. - Feb 25, 2009 7:20:42 am PST #155 of 5827
Unusually and exceedingly peculiar and altogether quite impossible to describe
How full is full? You can consent to sex with someone you've just met, I think. How much knowledge is necessary before you can be said to be consenting?
You need to know who they are, for one thing.
Maybe I'm being too particular, but if I'm going to let some guy stick his dick in me, I want to at least know who he is before it gets started.
t edit Or, what ita said.
DavidS - Feb 25, 2009 7:25:33 am PST #156 of 5827
"Look, son, if it's good enough for Shirley Bassey, it's good enough for you."
But don't prostitutes in a brothel basically consent to whoever shows up? Isn't that intrinsic to that gig?
That is, they're consenting to the job requirements whoever that is.
Similar to...a soldier accepting that he will kill people in battle. Not making individual decisions about who deserves to live or die, but accepting that killing is part of the job.
Then again the point of the Nuremberg trials and My Lai is that even soldiers are not relieved of moral responsibility because they're under orders.
§ ita § - Feb 25, 2009 7:34:41 am PST #157 of 5827
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.
In theory hookers should be able to say no in the moment, but they work in a morally grey (at best) and unregulated world.
I'd think that if they keep the money, yeah, they need to sex the guy, but do they have to take the dosh?
Dana - Feb 25, 2009 7:37:08 am PST #158 of 5827
"I'm useless alone." // "We're all useless alone. It's a good thing you're not alone."
Surely it depends on the brothel, she says, having just watched some episodes of Deadwood.
Steph L. - Feb 25, 2009 7:44:10 am PST #159 of 5827
Unusually and exceedingly peculiar and altogether quite impossible to describe
But don't prostitutes in a brothel basically consent to whoever shows up? Isn't that intrinsic to that gig?
They agree to terms of a job, not an intimate relationship. I think there's an important distinction there.
"But Steph," someone will say, "the 'job' IS sex! If they agree to the job, they agree to have sex!" And you know what? I don't think that prostitutes in a brothel *can* consent to have sex with whoever shows up. That they *do* is beside the point.
Steph L. - Feb 25, 2009 7:45:19 am PST #160 of 5827
Unusually and exceedingly peculiar and altogether quite impossible to describe
(Also, I'm not ditching the conversation, but I gotta get some work done. Stoopid paycheck.)
Jessica - Feb 25, 2009 8:00:27 am PST #161 of 5827
If I want to become a cloud of bats, does each bat need a separate vaccination?
But don't prostitutes in a brothel basically consent to whoever shows up? Isn't that intrinsic to that gig?
Take this line of reasoning a little further, though, and it becomes by definition impossible to rape a prostitute. One step further is "you can't rape a slut" and from there it's a short leap to "you can't rape your wife."
Which is why, legally, both parties have to consent every time.
victor infante - Feb 25, 2009 8:25:11 am PST #162 of 5827
To understand what happened at the diner, we shall use Mr. Papaya! This is upsetting because he's the friendliest of fruits.
Which is why, legally, both parties have to consent every time.
Exactly. Now, obviously, this is a situation that doesn't exactly exist in the real world, but every outside indicator that we have on the situation makes it appear unethical and illegal:
- The straight-laced (as far as we know) cop looking to take the Dollhouse down.
- The handler who is beginning to see his charge as a person and not an object.
- The former active who is seemingly out for revenge (begging the question of why would he want revenge for, which seems obvious on the face of it.)
- And finally, Echo's own resurging personality, which adds unease to the "programmed" personality.
I think, if you're an inattentive viewer, you would look at the Dollhouse operation and think, "Well, OK, that's probably illegal and unethical, but no harm's really done," as people often think about matters of illegal sex.
But I think the show gives you the pointers to indicate that the situation is actually otherwise, and that what happens to the Actives is far more horrific than it seems on the surface.