That *so* doesn't have to be brought forward in the movie. Jackson was willing to mess with enough shit. He could have had Maori hobbits or dwarves or white Uruk Hai quite simply. That's on him, and not on JRR.

It's true he didn't have to perpetuate the racism in the books. I don't know if he had all those options to him, though, especially since Tolkien does talk a lot about "the race of men" and specifically means some crypto-Aryan ideal.

Racial distinction is a part of Tolkien's world building and not just subtext. Gimli's the only dwarf we see. The Elves are specifically conceived as "fair folk" and would have to match his non-Maori stars anyway. Mighta coulda done the hobbits but he specifically cast very short actors to cheat the size difference illusion he was creating. So that limits your pool of Maori actors considerably. Plus you want to match your lead hobbits.

Casting them as Uruk Hai was the obvious way to give a lot of roles to the Maori, which seems like an admirable goal. Plus, I expect as Maori culture with a strong warrior ethos that was more appealing to them than playing hobbitses.

So, again I'm circling to the issue of representation vs. opportunity for POC actors, and I side with opportunity.

I expect as Maori culture with a strong warrior ethos

I'm just going to eyeroll at that. The implication that they're better suited or all gonna wanna be angry bad guys because they've got a haka is just fancy stereotyping.

I'm just going to eyeroll at that. The implication that they're better suited or all gonna wanna be angry bad guys because they've got a haka is just fancy stereotyping.

I don't think I'm mischaracterizing Maori culture.

To cite just one of thousands of articles on the subject, A Maori writer in two worlds.

Witi Ihimaera considers English to be his primary language for articulating his visions of Maori identity. In an interview with Paul Sharrad he said that the Maori language is "sacred" for him, and that English is a "profane" language. He also notes that if his works were written in Maori, they would not reach as wide an audience. What's more, he stresses, Maori is a warrior culture and a homophobic one at that, and does not always have special terms for the ideas he wishes to express.

And all I meant to say on that subject was that it was probably more appealing for Maori men to play warriors. I don't think that's a reach.

More appealing for the white filmmakers?

I don't think I'm mischaracterizing Maori culture.

No, but you're stereotyping Maori actors. Rumour has it that they're individuals, and they do all sorts of wacky individual things. Like be gay and shit, despite their culture. Even take acting roles where they aren't the bad guys killing people.

No, but you're stereotyping Maori actors. Rumour has it that they're individuals, and they do all sorts of wacky individual things. Like be gay and shit, despite their culture. Even take acting roles where they aren't the bad guys killing people.

Sometimes, they even do it while singing ridiculous folk comedy.

More appealing for the white filmmakers?

Well, I think that's the critique against Jackson's choice.

No, but you're stereotyping Maori actors. Rumour has it that they're individuals, and they do all sorts of wacky individual things. Like be gay and shit, despite their culture. Even take acting roles where they aren't the bad guys killing people.

Fair point. To be honest I really wasn't thinking of the Maori in LoTR so much in terms as actors, so much as lots of extras running after hobbits. Though obviously the guy who played Lurtz was up front and making an impression as a character.

But considering that Jackson was making a movie where physical racial distinctions were intrinsic to the fantasy world-building (such that it would've been narratively problematic, for example, to cast Denzel as Aragorn), then it doesn't seem to be a simple question.

If he wanted to give the opportunity for a large number of Maori to participate in the biggest film production in New Zealand's history and heterogenous casting wouldn't work, then they would need to go in as members of one group.

The solution he came up with is one that worked organically to the narrative. Even though it did so by bringing forward the innate racial typing in Tolkien's work.

So, that seems like it's more on Tolkien than Jackson.

Sometimes, they even do it while singing ridiculous folk comedy.

Yeah, but Brett got to be an elf. Still, there's good evidence that Jemaine could've played a number of roles in LotR.

Yeah, I definitely side with ita on this one. I recognize that your intent, David, was not to equate the actor with the characteristic you were applying to the character, but the de facto acceptance of that casting applies the latter to the former.

As regards Maori, the Maori kids I know were quite happy accepting the dichotomy of their culture which included a chest slapping, spear pounding, very dramatic tongue unrolling (although I'm pretty sure that bit didn't come through on the audio recording we were doing) haka recording session, and also a happy goofy hat wearing, spontaneous beat poetry recitation at the Chinese buffet. Which is to say, people are complex. I'm pretty sure something that appeals to the "warrior culture" is not universally appealing to Maori actors.

Asian actors can only answer casting calls that ask for Asian actors. The casting calls went out for those roles in problematic ways, but those actors to whom it applied could only audition for those roles.

So, again I'm circling to the issue of representation vs. opportunity for POC actors, and I side with opportunity.

This is a toughie, and the issue I was bringing up wrt Hawaii Five-0. I'm really happy that Daniel Dae Kim and Grace Park have work. I'm glad they're such high profile actors and that they're playing characters that are sympathetic, attractive people. But the actual casting is wrong, which continues to propagate the idea that all Asians look alike, that all Asian cultures are one.

The idea of opportunity for actors is what resulted in Japanese actors playing countless stereotypical roles. The same is true for black and Native American actors. Having those roles available to you is good, it means a paycheck in the bank. But being forced to be a continual part of propagating those stereotypes in order to work is a problematic way to stay employed.

I know you're a huge LoTR fan, Liese. What do you think of the way Tolkien treats race within the trilogy?