we do live in one who tries to sell people that it is one, and one set of values is better, universally, to all. Alternatives will always be tricky to handle, because they'll be seen as resistance.

INDEED. Well said.

Who the hell am I to decree that playing 18 hours of World of Warcraft is non-virtuous if it doesn't hurt anyone else and makes the person happy?

We're talking about societal values, not individual ones. I think Toddson's original point was asking about a shift in cultural values which overrated health to the detriment of civility.

I think a lot of people believe fat is a lifestyle choice and that it is OK to discriminate (or at least make fun of people) based on their lifestyle choices. I believe many of these people feel the same way about homosexuality.

Not really. It punishes people who are ill, and I have a problem with shaming, say, cancer patients for their lack of virtue.

I don't really see that dynamic. I see the emphasis on "healthy choices."

Oh HELL no. We live in a country where the perception of health is everything -- hence, someone who loses weight from undergoing chemo is lauded, while the overweight athlete is sneered at.

Choices, my (fat) ass.

Exercise, eating right, not smoking. I agree that all three of those things should be pushed over 18 hour World of Warcraft sessions, double-stuffed pizzas and Joe Camel.

Actually, individual self-determination means that you can do whatever you want to yourself, and it's okay. I do not give one crap if anyone I know plays 18 hours of WoW while eating pizzas and chain-smoking. I'm not the arbiter of anyone's lifestyle.

The virtue is not health itself, but doing things which promote health.

Not currently, it isn't.

The virtue is not health itself, but doing things which promote health.

Meh. That's great as your own personal choice for yourself and to instill in your kids, but whatever, I think a person's personal choice is their own. Who the hell am I to decree that playing 18 hours of World of Warcraft is non-virtuous if it doesn't hurt anyone else and makes the person happy?

I'm just going to follow Nora around and proclaim my love for her (sorry, Tom).

We're talking about societal values, not individual ones.

My point still stands- I don't see why society needs to get up people's asses about playing excessive video games and eating pizza for every meal. I think that societal values could be better focused on, say, being considerate to other people or not being so greedy as to fuck the economy of the entire world.

But damn, I bet those executives and their wives are HELLA healthy and fit.

I'm just going to follow Nora around and proclaim my love for her

Whoo! Come do it in New England, will ya?

If societal values are to encourage health, perhaps a more socially wide effort should be encouraged (side-walks in neighborhoods to encourage walking places, stores with fresh vegetables at reasonable prices in poor neighborhoods, space for community gardens, etc.) rather than poking at individuals through fat jokes, cookie shame, and pushing the BMI.

And now I'm going to follow Calli around and proclaim my love for her.

Dear Calli -

I am intrigued with your thoughts and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Aimee

I am now in love with the phrase "cookie shame." Thank you, Calli.