Wow, Daniel. Kudos.

I can't help but thinking that there's this thread that's connecting them, and that thread is that you can't trust your country to protect you so much.

Well...yeah. It's kind of built into the fabric of our country.

The 2nd Amendment was put in there because we had just got done wresting our independence from an oppressive imperial government. One of the things that oppressor did, before we sent them running (which is always so fun to say because it sounds like we easily tromped the shit out of the Brits and sent them packing with a hearty laugh and a boot to the ass, but the truth is it was a long, bloody conflict that we were constantly on the verge of losing) was try to outlaw privately owned guns because, you know...we were using said guns to shoot at British soldiers. The Third Amendment says that citizens are not required to house soldiers in peacetime, because British soldiers would often just barge their way into a house, make themselves at home, eat all the Doritos, hog the remote control and fart on all the couch pillows because, hey, they were soldiers, so fuck you, citizen. Similarly, the Fourth Amendment protects against unreasonable search and seizure, because the Brits would kick in your door and trash your place because you looked at them funny and they could.

We come from a history of not trusting the state to protect us, of guarding against the power of the state and the old "power corrupts" adage. We know that, generally, folk who rise to power are fuckers in some way and it was built in to the Constitution that the average citizen had the right to protest abuse of power and prepare to physically defend against it. It seemed reasonable at the time. Hell, I'm a big ol' stinkin' liberal and it seems reasonable now. When Bush and Cheney and Co. were proposing USA PATRIOT and it looked like suspension of civil rights and jackbooted "patriotism enhancers" were right around the corner, I seriously considered getting a gun or two. Never did, but the impulse was there...because I didn't trust the state to protect me, as my forefathers taught me.

Gun control is a big and thorny issue, but I do believe in the right of citizens to arm themselves against a potentially abusive government. I believe that a citizen should have the right and ability to protect their persons and property against unreasonable search and seizure. And, if the going gets real bad, you can't just wave the Constitution around and say "You're not playing by the rules!"

That said, the monitoring of where guns go and who gets to purchase them is necessary and, currently, poorly executed. Too many guns are being stolen and used for crime. Too many are being sold to felons...people who have largely given up many of their rights by proving they cannot play well with others.

I think my "solution" would go a long way towards mitigating that, but by no means do I think it would make the problem go entirely away. The only way to make the problem go away is to change human nature.

And good luck with that.

Am on train. Had forgotten how pretty the English countryside is. (All you can see from the M1 is more road. And the odd bridge. And a lot of other cars, all crawling along at 5 mph together.)

Good morning to those for whom it is morning, and timelies to the rest.

I have no problem with guns for hunting or police/military. The only kind of gun I've ever shot personally was bb guns, and the only living things I ever shot were fiddler crabs (and I mostly missed). I have a major problem with the guns in my grandfather's house, because AFAIK none are secured and at least one is kept loaded (a shotgun, I think) and IIRC the bullets on the floor of the back bedroom were armor-piercing. My grandfather hasn't hunted in decades (at least 3 of them) and I have no idea if he ever went to ranges. He doesn't now. And what he does have is little grandchildren and great-grandchildren running about the house.

My uncle, the one who's decided he wants to go by Gunpa instead of Grandpa, also has a large collection but I'm pretty sure he's better about keeping it secure.

I'd like to see stronger gun control, and I definitely think certain kinds of guns/bullets should be illegal. If all the guns on earth suddenly got raptured, it's no skin off my nose, but I wouldn't campaign to get rid of them all or anything.

I like MM's plan. I also like Chris Rock's proposal - anyone can own/buy/sell as many guns as they want, no restrictions...bullets cost $5,000 each.

And, if the going gets real bad, you can't just wave the Constitution around and say "You're not playing by the rules!"

This is the crux of it, really - in the event that the US government is taken over in a military coup, I think it's safe to assume that ALL our Constitutional rights are out the window, 2nd Amendment included. It's not like the military junta is going to say "Well, the citizens are fighting back, but what can we do about it? We can't take away their guns, it's a Constitutional right! Nothin' we can do about that!"

True, Jessica, but at least the citizens will *already have the guns*. Well, not every citizen, obviously, but you know.

So the conversation might go ""Well, the citizens are fighting back, but what can we do about it?"

"Take away their guns! They don't have the right to them anymore! Mwah hah ha!"

"Well, sir, that's problematic..."

"Why? Hm? Johnson? Why? Johnson! Where's the top of your head? JOHNSON!"

The other problem, from my PoV, with the "defense against an unconstitutional government" argument is that the guns that people have (ignoring the illegal ones of drug trafficers) don't seem like they'd do a Hell of a lot against the modern US military. Even a hundred years ago, there wasn't the effectiveness-in-killing gap that we now have. They may work against the totalitarian-cop-on-the-street, but, at that point, the other side can raise their game, and you're dead.

ITA, Debetesse.

"Our opponent is an alien starship packed with atomic bombs," I said. "We have a protractor."

True, Debet, but I think the point is that, in the event of an unconstitutional government, at least you have a *chance*. Granted, my grandpappy's huntin' rifle won't do shit against an APC crammed full of guys with AR-15s and M-60s, but it's better than an improvised slingshot made from a pair of crutches and the hot water hose from the washing machine.

Keep in mind, y'all, that I do not own a gun. I've fired a couple handguns (and WHEEEE HOWDY it was fun!) but I don't own one because I've got a curious and ingenious little monkey girl about the place. But I think I should have the right to own one, assuming I haven't given up that right by engaging in felonious anti-social-contract behavior.

Strange to me that more people choose to become gun owners and not, say, doctors.

It costs a few hundred dollars, maybe, to get a gun (actually I have no idea how much, but I can't be off by more than one order of magnitude). It costs a few hundred thousand dollars to become a doctor.