In completely superficial news, I'm trying to break Loki of denning in the litterbox. I know why he does it but uhg.

If after seven years, you can't put together a case against some of these guys that doesn't rely heavily on tortured confessions, you just don't have a case, whether or not you "think" the guy is guilty.

I do believe that some of these detainees may be guilty, but if you can't prove it without playing Calvinball with the rules of law and justice, it's time to give it up.

Presidents in my lifetime: Ford,Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obama. singsong :One of these things is not like the other.

FINALLY. I'm in love with the idea we're finally getting closer to understanding this nation as one of immigrants and natives of all and a little closer to it not mattering. I'm a generation removed from immigration, but I'm an "acceptable" immigrant-progeny. My -ism ran its course before my dad grew up.

I do keep thinking about the primaries, when I assumed John Edwards would be the nominee, because I couldn't really imagine either the woman or the black guy actually taking it, even without getting into the baggage their actual names gave them.

Bananas.

Bananas.

That shit's bananas.

If after seven years, you can't put together a case against some of these guys that doesn't rely heavily on tortured confessions, you just don't have a case, whether or not you "think" the guy is guilty.

I do believe that some of these detainees may be guilty, but if you can't prove it without playing Calvinball with the rules of law and justice, it's time to give it up.

This. If some of the detainees are dangerous, we have to live with that. Our government tortured them, making it impossible to get convictions by any standard of innocent until proven guilty (presumption of innocence is an American tradition in both civilian and military courts.). So we need to let them go, and live with any risk that entails.

OK, the Gitmo sketch on Daily Show was just the perfect balance of insightful and surreal and wtf?

One of my kids today commented on how Obama wants to "let all the people in Gitmo go." People really seem to think that it's Guantanamo or NOTHING, somehow, as though there's no other way to incarcerate or try people.

Not to mention, apparently so long as the people we're dealing with aren't American, American standards shouldn't have to apply (like, I don't know, due process and innocent until proven guilty). Now, I'll admit I don't know the legal details, but... that doesn't seem right to me exactly.

Our government tortured them, making it impossible to get convictions by any standard of innocent until proven guilty (presumption of innocence is an American tradition in both civilian and military courts.).

Yep. Even if they could've been convicted on evidence completely independent of the way they were treated, any trial is now impossibly tainted. Benjamin Franklin said something along the lines of "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety". The Bush administration managed to give up both.

I also like to think of the words of Thomas Jefferson, who said something to the effect that it is better that a thousand guilty people go free than a single innocent person get wrongly convicted.