Someone linked to that a couple of days ago ... I've been spreading the joy

(that was me)

To argue that pirates are not romantic figures

In fairness to you, I was using the word "romantic" carelessly. I was really arguing against the notion that the Somali Pirates are somehow unlike historical pirates, with the implication that historical pirates were loveable and nice guys. "Romantic" is sometimes used in casual speech with a different connotation than the literatery meaning. But on this board I should have known better than to use it that way.

Somali Pirates are very much like historical pirates - even down to being driven to it by real desperation. Somali is a failed state. There are a few worse places in the world to live, but not many. Does not keep them from being nasty characters, any more than the desperate situation the original pirates were escaping stopped them from being nasty characters. However I still say the romanticism of pirates is not in the least Byronic. That is a different kind of romanticism than killing people for money.

It's an interesting conversation, and reminds me of Hells Angels. My cousins and I grew up thinking the Angels were so fucking cool, and romantic in the Byronic way. And then I grew up and read Hunter F. Thompson's book and was blown away with disgust. Sorta like how I felt about pirates after being raised on Peter Pan and Disneyland, etc (and then actually learning about the real thing).

ita, I also like the underbust cinchers in red and white stripes.

sobs

I would hit the shiny button and buy one of those RIGHT NOW, if it wasn't for the fact that I'm a short-waisted mutant and I know it wouldn't fit me properly.

That's what I was thinking , Javachick. There's a story that is romantic -- but it isn't real. Real life pirates - not romantic, but the stories/myths are. And then things get weird in real life. I knew a Hell's Angel. The oddest combination a generous loyal human being that you real wouldn't want to cross. Sounds great on paper -- IRL not so much.

My only thought about pirates is that ships traveling near Somalia might want to think about getting some cannons.

I just watched some serial killer show while eating dinner, and was really glad I finished before watching Bones.

Were you having chile con carne?

I still say the romanticism of pirates is not in the least Byronic. That is a different kind of romanticism than killing people for money.

"Byronic" doesn't mean "Just like Lord Byron." A Byronic hero is superior to other people, and the laws of society don't apply to him. To a Romantic, passion is way more important than good citizenship. Which is how you get to Nietzsche.

So, what Hec said. Pirates are way romantic.

Oh dear. I have corset oost.

I really don't need corset oost. My life doesn't really have much need for corsets. Plus I really couldn't buy just the corset, I'd need the whole outfit to go with.

Somali Pirates are very much like historical pirates - even down to being driven to it by real desperation.

I understand that the Somali pirates are very poor people who are scraping by. Pretty much sea-bandits. But there are so many completely different historical pirate groups that were driven by different motives in different circumstances.

The Salley Rovers/Barbary Pirates controlled North Africa for centuries. The were the power and owned the cities and ran them: Tripoli, Sale, Algiers, Tunis. That's different from Elizabeth's privateers, who were different from Capt. Morgan, who was very different from the pirates of the South China Sea.

In periods and cultures of great social restraint, piracy offered many, many more freedoms and advantages than people often got in their home country. And...that's romantic. As Strega notes, the outlaw status of the pirate is completely aligned with the romantic notion of defining your morality personally, outside of the dictates of your culture.