I thought you had a serious point to make, Hec.

About cultural wars?

It's hard to generalize, but the specifics of the poetry battle goes back to William Carlos Williams (WCW) feeling that Eliot had set American poetry back decades by building on European poetry traditions of heightened, allusive language instead of working toward an American poetry that grew out of native rhythms and pattersn of speech.

(Hence the "fuck you" that javachik alludes to.)

Academia embraced Eliot's aesthetic, but the WCW strain flourished in what were called Little Magazines - basically poetry zines of the 20s and 30s and 40s.

It's the WCW poetic which informs the Beat poets as well as the New York School of the 50s (Frank O'Hara) and Black Mountain (an experimental college in the Carolinas where Charles Olson was King Poet and Theorist).

It's one reason why there was so much hostility towards the Beats in academia for a long time - a bias which is still in place. But Ginsberg winning the National Book Award in the early 70s, followed closely by Gary Snyder winning a Pulitzer signalled a cultural turning point, acknowleding the Beat/WCW/Pound influenced poetry.

One of the ways the cultural wars was fought was by trying to define the canon of post-war poetry. Famously, the anthology The New American Poetry edited by Donald Hall (the most popular and influential poetry anthology of the 20th century) championed the WCW/Beat aesthetic, largely in response to a competing anthology of post-war poets (the title escapes me) which had a completely different cast of poets. (Except, I think Robert Duncan and Charles Olson).

So each anthology asserted different branches of poetic evolution as definitive and essential.

And I was only half joking about losing tenure and stuff. There's no way you could've done a thesis at Kenyon College (home to New Criticism, and hence antithetical to the WCW/Pound aesthetic) about somebody like Ginsberg in the 50s or 60s. If an academic pursued an interest in Gary Snyder over say, Robert Lowell, that would've been a form of career suicide back then. Or it might prevent somebody from becoming the Dept. Chair at some universities.

The usual academic infighting, I guess.

Here's a Bob Bob question:

My nephew asked me for a spacesuit so he can go to Mars.

I asked him if he had a spaceship to get there.

He said if he's wearing the spacesuit, the ship will come pick him up.

I say this is solid logic. Thoughts?

Hmm. Maybe I should start sitting around the house in my ball gown and the limo driven by George Clooney will stop by.

I say this is solid logic. Thoughts?

I'm going to have to cast a dissenting vote for: fallacious.

He said if he's wearing the spacesuit, the ship will come pick him up.

Your nephew seems to have invented a child version of the South Pacific "cargo cults" that emerged after WWII, when the local tribes assumed that they could attract airplanes and their valuable cargo by recreating the conditions under which they observed airplanes during the war.

From Wikipedia:

Famous examples of cargo cult activity include the setting up of mock airstrips, airports, offices, dining rooms, as well as the fetishization and attempted construction of western goods, such as radios made of coconuts and straw. Believers may stage "drills" and "marches" with sticks for rifles and use military-style insignia and "USA" painted on their bodies to make them look like soldiers, thereby treating the activities of western military personnel as rituals to be performed for the purpose of attracting the cargo. The cult members built these items and 'facilities' in the belief that the structures would attract cargo intended to be sent to them.

I say this is solid logic. Thoughts?

I'd put this more as a worthy empirical study. If it doesn't work, after all, he's still up one spacesuit.

Where do we have a previously established relationship between spacesuits and spaceship?

The usual academic infighting, I guess.

And it all winds back down to...

I find it remarkable that people would care so much about poetry that other people are writing, but I'm distant from the concreteness of poetry as a market. Shortly after being disabused of the ease of making a living writing books I couldn't imagine how you'd make money if a work beginning to end might not even be a page.

Not that this makes poetry not serious stuff--just that it would make it not career stuff to create.

Your nephew seems to have invented a child version of the South Pacific "cargo cults" that emerged after WWII, when the local tribes assumed that they could attract airplanes and their valuable cargo by recreating the conditions under which they observed airplanes during the war.

I read once that there's a cargo cult in the South Pacific that believes Prince Phillip is the incarnation of their volcano god, moved awsay to marry the Empress of the World. One day he will return to them, scantily clad, bearing gifts of cigarettes and refrigerators.

They wrote to him once explaining this. He sent them an autographed picture of himself.

I find it remarkable that people would care so much about poetry that other people are writing

I think in a lot of cases, the caring came from not being able to get into print if you didn't adhere to a certain standpoint or style.

Now, in this day of zines and teh internets and a world of small printing presses and computers, we can take for granted how easy it can be to get your voice heard outside of your own neighborhood.

Then, not so much, maybe? And your stuff definitely wouldn't ever be taught to anyone, much less a university-level student, because it wasn't canon.

The beats, and the feminists, and the Achebes of the world changed that.

Went out to dinner, discovered any food temp approaching warm makes the entire upper right of my face explode in agony. This is...new. My dinner last night did not do this, my morning coffee did not do this, lunch didn't do this.

I have to wait till Thursday.

I bought a fucking teething ring, because cold= no pain.