I've never been into RPGs but I realize now that I was very lucky in my tiny town on the Eastern Shore, having a regular big group for more social games and also having a few couples who were always ready for German-style games.

All you peeps starving for pnp games need to move to Seattle. This place has the highest density of gamers I've ever found.

I got some 4E games over the weekend. Most fun I've had in ages. I was gaming with some guys I used to game with, but they gave up on Living Greyhawk. They've come back with 4E.

I like 4E so far, I've found it very congenial for roleplaying. I'm finding the combat more streamlined, but there are some significant caveats there. my character's only 2nd level, my 3.5 character's were significantly higher and the two highest level were casters, so it's not apples to apples. I also have a set of coloured magnetic discs, and that's proven very helpful for keeping things straight. (My party had two fighters, a paladin and two warlocks, so there were several marks and curses to keep track of.) Without them I could see it getting more confusing.

I intend to convert the home game I'm running to 4E. I like 3.5 too, and got my money's worth many times over from it, but with a baby on the way I just don't have the time to prep everything in 3.5. As a player I could do it, as GM it's too much.

Not really true. There's still a lot of debate on the subject and a lot of people who liked 4.0 when it started but found it didn't have legs and returned to 3.5.

Yeah, I have no idea what the market situation is. There are vocal proponents of both systems. Sales at my local gaming store have been pretty good, but some of that is likely the novelty factor. It did seem to be pretty well supported at the Con last weekend, numbers were maybe a bit down on last year but there was still a choice of table. Currently I'd say in Melbourne it's doing pretty well but not spectacularly.

I kind of want a 5.0, but I won't see that for awhile. Well, unless 4.0 sales really begin to tank. I suspect the game is not going to encourage as many returning sales as they hoped, even with their paired down release schedule, offset as it is by a subscription based online element (which has had over six months of teething troubles and seen a lot of people quit).

They've just made available the full 30-level character builder Pretty far behind schedule, I think, but I'm very pleased to see it. I'm not sure about this, but I think WotC have scaled back their plans for DDI tools.

connie speaks for me. 4.0 is pnp Diablo; I prefer some modicum of role-playing.

No, no, 3E was pnp Diablo, 4E is pnp WoW.

I like Dungeon Siege. Point the character at the baddies, watch 'em fight. Figure out what you want to buy. Dungeon Siege II is pushing my taste for "This power goes with that, and you can tweak it with this." When I play a video game, brainless is what I'm going for. Which is why I can play mah jongg for hours.

No, no, 3E was pnp Diablo, 4E is pnp WoW.

OK, fair cop.

I'm not sure about this, but I think WotC have scaled back their plans for DDI tools.

Who can tell what WotC is planning, and I include WotC in that.

When I play a video game, brainless is what I'm going for. Which is why I can play mah jongg for hours.

For me it's RoboRally. Having a computer take responsibility for executing all the cards in the right order makes the game so much smoother.

Who can tell what WotC is planning, and I include WotC in that.

See, they should change their name to Sorcerers of the Coast.

Just to put my money where my mouth is....

I have yet to actually play 4.0 myself, but several other people in my other gaming group have. The people who have played it were very excited about it, and liked everything they were hearing, but that all changed when the game came out.

The biggest problem they have is the way monster challenges scale, and the way they are dependent on the entire group being there for the whole fight. Basically, if you are fighting a monster (or group of monsters) that are appropriate for your challenge level (or lower), you *will* win, every time. It can be exciting (though there have been many complaints about the "accounting" thing Pete mentioned), and it may take a while, but you *will* win, and there's little the monster can do about it.

If you are fighting a monster that's above your challenge level, you *will* lose. Every time. Slowly, perhaps, but inexorably you will lose.

That's the report I've heard multiple times now.

And while everybody loves the *idea* of skill challenges, the designers have a very poor understanding of probability, and the math is *still* broken, even though they've tried to fix this problem in errata.

There are other major complaints, but that's all I remember off the top of my head. But the main point here is that both the guys in my group that were excited about 4.0 now never want to play it again.

And while I have yet to play it, I already have a pretty good idea from just reading the PHB that this is not the style of gaming I enjoy.