The thing is, today, even if you think that pants are OK with the "halakha", wearing a skirt still carries a meaning - a sort of declaration, of somebody belonging to the more religious stream of behavior

Oh, that's interesting. Maybe less of a thing here, since the division isn't so stark. I mean, I wear a skirt almost every day, and it's barely remarked upon.

In Judaism, there are two problems with pants: one is the modesty (and when the pants are long enough and not tight, then it's OK), and the other is that there's a rule that men shouldn't wear women's clothes and women shouldn't wear men's clothes. So as long as pants were strictly a men's clothing item, women were not allowed to wear them. But in the last fifty years or so, when it became common for women to wear pants as well, and there are cuts especially designed for women, which no man would ever wear - that problem is gone, too.

So interesting! I think what's especially interesting for me is learning what the rules actually are, because what I mostly know is how they look from the outside. I never would have thought of the man's clothes/woman's clothes thing. (Also the rules about which animals are kosher being related to characteristics, not actual animals, so you can figure out any new animal you come across. Fascinating!)

About modesty:

I always felt I was fairly modest (like Nilly would say, it's all about what you're showing - from the inside), until about two years ago, when I finished my army service and encountered with the "need real clothing for life" issue.

Being color-shade-blind and a cloth-shopping hater, I always trust few friends to come with me and make this as painless as possible. They, pretty much, dictate my "taste". And then I realized that I love tank-tops, and I don't care what Trinny and Susannah say about women with not-really-skinny-arms wearing them. I like how they look on me, and I love the cleavage.

So I'm kind of torn.

OMG, ita, I was totally going to respond, but then I forgot. I'm pretty sure on L&O, "felony murder" means someone died while you were committing the felony, whether or not you meant for them to die.

You're half right. If you intend for them to die it's straight-up murder. Felony murder is unintended.

what? I missed this, what's the question?

I'm guessing, from: ita "Natter 58: Let's call Venezuela!" Apr 13, 2008 6:24:29 pm PDT

I just finished watching the most incomprehensible episode of Cold Case. I swear not a one person's motivation made sense. Plus, they spent an awful lot of time trying to work out which of the bank robbers was the shooter that killed the teller. Don't they all go down for it? Felony murder, or something?

I'm pretty sure on L&O, "felony murder" means someone died while you were committing the felony, whether or not you meant for them to die. I'm not sure if the thing about everyone being equally guilty is true, or a lie they use to break the weak team member.

If someone dies during the commission of a felony, whether the conduct of the criminal was directly related or not, everyone who is charged with the felony can also be charged/convicted of felony murder. This is generally true whether a kidnapping victim accidentally suffocates in a trunk, a bank patron has a heart attack during a robbery, or a guard is shot during an armored car heist.

ION, now I'm scared of being trapped in an elevator: [link]

Damn. That elevator-trappage incident totally fucked up his life.

(Am now earwormed with a slow, mournful version of Aerosmith's "Love in an Elevator".... oh, and there was some '70s hit about being stuck in an elevator with someone of the opposite sex....)

NILLY! I'm so sorry you missed the wedding, but... will you be hanging around for a bit? I'm about to upload a couple of Matilda pictures I took just for you. (running away now to take care of it, but I'll be back with links ASAP)

You're half right.

Woo hoo!

And then I realized that I love tank-tops, and I don't care what Trinny and Susannah say about women with not-really-skinny-arms wearing them. I like how they look on me, and I love the cleavage.

So I'm kind of torn.

There was a US-version What Not To Wear one time with a young woman who was Mormon, and had grown up dressing modestly, but I don't think she was all that religious anymore. But she was still concerned about modesty. It was interesting what they did with her -- they got her into a pencil skirt (fairly tight), but sewed up the slit, like that. Now this doesn't seem all that related to what you were saying, but I think it's a similar conflict of how to walk the line when you're making each choice yourself. If that makes sense.

I'm not sure if the thing about everyone being equally guilty is true, or a lie they use to break the weak team member.

I think it varies a little from state to state, but yes, if you are involved in a felony, and anybody committing the felony with you murders someone, you are just as culpable as if you had pulled the trigger yourself.

at least in Israel, it's quite rare to find a non-religious girl wearing a skirt, or wearing it without a very revealing top, in order to indicate that she's not, of all things, religious

So very true. I started to buy skirts lately, but I still don't wear them, and didn't think about wearing them without some revealing top. However, I never felt like I'm doing this so I won't be considered religious, but more because that's the way I think it look good. And that, I think, comes from the society I grew up in.