Yay Jars with the mad driving skillz.

~ma for Erin. In my thoughts all morning.

It is smoky outside this morning. Not a single thing in any news reports on line. I don't know whether it is a controlled burn of sugar cane fields, or drought related fires. But not nice weather for breathing. Looking at the weather for the week did show me that it is going to be close to 90 every day. Guess I better get the A/C fixed.

Anyone else hear about the study on adopted vs. natural children and tendencies for mental issues as teenagers? If not, one of the mental disorders they talked about was Oppositional Defiance Disorder. Joe and I called BULLSHIT on it in the car and I came to work and looked it up. Here are the criteria:

A pattern of negativistic, hostile, and defiant behavior lasting at least six months during which four or more of the following are present:

1. Often loses temper

2. often argues with adults

3. often actively defies or refuses to comply with adults' requests or rules

4. often deliberately annoys people

5. often blames others for his or her mistakes or misbehavior

6. is often touchy or easily annoyed by others

7. is often angry and resentful

8. is often spiteful and vindictive

The disturbance in behavior causes clinically significant impairment in social, academic, or occupational functioning.

I know Em's only three, but she does half of these and I am pretty sure that it's not some damned disorder. What the hell? Are we medicating kids for any kind of negative behavior now? I'm on board with ADD and ADHD, but this? Seems like totaly hippie-dippie bullshit.

Shit - *I* do most of these things and I'm pretty sure I'm just an a-hole.

I remember birthing the boys and they do all that stuff. I did too. What is normal teen behavior supposed to look like?

eta: Hey! No dissin' the hippies.

I'm pretty that describes all teenagers, adopted or not, at one point or another.

All kinds of ~ma to Erin.

And big hugs to Laura, because I only just caught up.

Aims, one of the parenting podcasts I listen to had an episode on ODD recently, and the guest they were interviewing (who had done the research and written a book) explicitly said that 3 year-olds (one of the hosts has 3-year old twin boys) are just like that, and a toddler arguing all the time and refusing to hear "No" is not a behavioral disorder, it's just them being toddlers.

It's the last sentence that's the key:

The disturbance in behavior causes clinically significant impairment in social, academic, or occupational functioning.

Like with any other behavioral disorder, there's a wide spectrum from normal to diagnosible, and it's not a disorder until the behavior is causing "clinically significant impairment."

Here's the link if you want to listen. I thought it was really interesting stuff.

As far as medicating goes, I don't remember them mentioning any kind of medication for ODD - most of it was just how to talk to your defiant kid so they'll listen.

most of it was just how to talk to your defiant kid so they'll listen.

I find waving the gun around is pretty effective.

"clinically significant impairment."

I'll have to do more reading and find out what that point is.

I recognize a lot of the symptoms as ones I had in SPADES as a teenager and it led to a lot of Bad Stuff for me, but I would venture to say that for me, anyway, it was undiagnosed depression that led to me acting out in a severe fashion.

I wonder if there has been anything showing that ODD is a symptom of a bigger thing? Admittedly, the NPR piece was brief and presupposed you knew something on ODD and I haven't had a bunch of time to reserach it this morning, but I swear, just hearing what they said on NPR got my hackles up. I sometimes feel like every kid (overgeneral me? Nahhh) has some kind of something wrong with them and that more often than not it seems to me that medicating them is the answer given. Kids are supposed to be a-holes sometimes. It's what makes them kids and what we, as parents, get to hold over their heads for the rest of their life! If I'm medicating my kids into Stepford Kids, how am I supposed to make them feel like shit when they're 30 for acting a fool when they were 15? Won't anyone think of the parents?

Aims:

I know Em's only three, but she does half of these and I am pretty sure that it's not some damned disorder. What the hell? Are we medicating kids for any kind of negative behavior now? I'm on board with ADD and ADHD, but this? Seems like totaly hippie-dippie bullshit.

Jessica:

Like with any other behavioral disorder, there's a wide spectrum from normal to diagnosible, and it's not a disorder until the behavior is causing "clinically significant impairment.".... As far as medicating goes, I don't remember them mentioning any kind of medication for ODD - most of it was just how to talk to your defiant kid so they'll listen.

What Jessica says is true: ODD is not your garden-variety, regularly scheduled, developmentally necessary, separation of self from parent, hormonally enhanced, defiance. Like AD/HD it is not so much a matter of "everybody who ever has any of these symptoms needs meds", which would be silly and unnecessary, as "everybody has these symptoms sometimes, people with the disorder have them enough to cause serious impairment in many areas of life".

One of the residents I work with has ODD. Dealing with her is different than dealing with someone who just does not want to be bothered, as well as different from someone who just needs to explore independence. If you ask her if she wants to take a bath, she will say "No!". If you ask her if she wants to take a bath while handing her a towel and wash cloth, she will say "No!", turn the water on, start taking her clothes off, and take a bath. If you simply hand her the towel and wash cloth without talking about it, she will run the water, start taking her clothes off, and take a bath. It's always fun to explain the subtleties of getting her to actually do stuff with new staff members who have had "Not violating clients' rights" drilled into them, with no reference to a true point of resistance. Because many new staffers will assume that that "No!" is sacred. No means no, after all. But she will say no and do yes very happily. Ask her if she likes you, and she will say "No!" while smiling and hugging you.

Post Toasties.

I should mention that if she truly does not want to do something, she flat out will not do it. There have been times when I handed her the towel and wash cloth, and she said, "No!" and walked away. This is her point of resistance. And at that point, we do not force the issue. But I have had new staff members try to tell me it was a violation of her rights to hand her the towel after she said "No". And bear in mind that this is a woman who recently celebrated her 50th birthday. This is not a phase for her. Kids who have ODD - as opposed to those who are in a stage of development which calls for a certain amount of defiance - will not simply get better by outliving their toddler or teen years.

At what point in time or at what benchmark do you (general you, not you, Windsparrow! YOU TELL ME!) determine that it is not a phase and is to the severity of the disorder?