all the other dour, driven, obsessed, haunted, "see my tortured past and pain" cops

Is it really that bad out there? I mean, assuming you don't watch SVU or CI? Sure, they torture their pasts, but you don't actually have to be an ass to get past that, like Tony and his crap. Look at the Criminal Minds gang--it's one of the reasons I love them so much. They have some of the most horrendous crimes to deal with, plus they've given Morgan and Reid and slightly Prentiss tortured pasts, and they move beyond them pretty well (Reid tries, really he does). Only Hotch is stamped by his, and his past is the vaguest of them all.

I don't know. With Tony it strikes me that they put in comic relief where a personality is supposed to go, and are trusting that enough people will think "charming devil." I can only take it when I don't think about its persistence across all these episodes, and the fact that they actually let Tim grow up a bit over that period.

Still, Abby may not grow up, and Gibbs seems to have regressed, so I'm looking for the wrong stuff for this show if I'm demanding character arcs. Just...there were hints of what might have been after Jeanne. And then, nowt.

Yeah, I'm starting to realize that season was a total anomaly. It was also after that they kicked Bellasario out of the day-to-day running of the show. I don't know how much he had to do with the storylines and character development we saw in season 4. I loved the Tony/Jeanne arc, but hated the Jenny/Frog stuff with a passion and despised Jenny just in general.

Ack. I'll keep watching, though. I like all the characters and I love that at least Jimmy and McGee are getting better arcs as time goes on. The rest are sort of in suspended animation, and while that grates against the growth of the others, I think they're afraid to change them too much because most people who watch the show like Tony, Abby and Gibbs just the way they are.

I loved the Tony/Jeanne arc, but hated the Jenny/Frog stuff with a passion and despised Jenny just in general

Last night, USA showed "Blowback," the ep where Ducky had to pose as a arms developer trying to sell his product to the Frog after McGee and Ziva chased the actual guy until he died from a coronary. Jenny just went off on them and straight into eyes-turning-red mode. I don't know what it is about NCIS and their various attempts to give their characters a Big Bad to obsess over capturing (Jenny/the Frog, S1 Gibbs/Ari)--I think it just makes the good guys look crazy when they go off the cliff.

No, I don't watch SVU and CI. All the CSI shows make me want to strangle the characters, and I start rooting for the lead investigators to get shot. Whiny, self-important whatzits. I don't see any of them writing down "You could be wrong" or whatever Gibbs wrote down. I could be wrong as well, I don't watch them often enough.

I suppose you'll say the NCIS people are whiny and self-important, and I'll disagree with you, but I've learned that I don't mind disagreeing on this.

Epic, I know, right?? It totally bugged! I kept saying "they should know better, they film in LA!"

All the CSI shows make me want to strangle the characters

On the whole, they don't write them particularly likably, but they don't fit the tortured past stereotype you complain about either. That's why I cited SVU and CI--it's Olivia Benson and Goren to a tee. Most of the other procedurals I watch vary from not-character-intensive (the CSIs, which are also pretty crap) to ones with characters who might have tortured pasts, but hardly carry it around as much as say, Gibbs does. Though I'd love to see him crossed over with Hotch from CM. At least one of them is totally in the clear for avenging his wife's death. But he was a bitter SOB before that even happened.

Epic, I know, right?? It totally bugged! I kept saying "they should know better, they film in LA!"

Ummm, poetic (whatever) license?

Because they couldn't get Castle to do it.

Jeffrey Deaver...Seamus Dever...that was weird for a second.

Oh, yeah. I hadn't actually noticed that.