my personal feelings is that anyone who can be cruel to an animal(who can't defend themselves no matter how "vicious" a breed they are) would have no trouble hurting a human. especially a child. i have no patience whatsoever for people who think it's okay to do anything remotely heinous to an animal.

I hope Vick rots. maybe he could take his buddy White with him...

Tamara, much ~ma to your mom and you.

cheer, you say, meara? hmm...i'm comin' up empty today. though that cuteoverload site is at least giving me things to smile and laugh about.

I don't mean to gloss your point, obviously there are a lot of contributing factors to this. But while there may be no "thug recruitment policy" there certainly is a thug tolerance level that in a lot of ways crosses over to thug encouragement.

I think you missed my point. I'm saying it is fostered in the NFL, but the way the guy said "Why do they hire so many thugs" struck me as racist.

It takes some incredibly disciplined leadership to take the kind of environment soaked in money/fame/entitlement/violence to stop that kind of crap, and that's difficult for some coaches when if they're too authoritative-they're fired for rubbing the owner the wrong way (Yep, Jerry, I'm looking at you) or pissing off too many "star players."

But see...I thought that was the whole idea. Or perhaps I've watched too many feel-good sportsflicks where the ethic includes some sort of nobility and honor while you 'crush the fuckers.'

While I can see the point about toeing too close to racism, I can't agree because I think modern recruitment is far more commerce oriented than political in nature these days. Who is the biggest, meanest mofo we can get who will kill the other guys, make the fans love him and who can multitask enough to run, catch and WIN. I don't think it matters what color he is, long as the job gets done and the pockets are lined.

I think you missed my point. I'm saying it is fostered in the NFL, but the way the guy said "Why do they hire so many thugs" struck me as racist.

I guess my point is they do both. But I don't disagree that that's a statement that can be carrying a long of wrong behind the actual words.

Nutty skipped and skimmed me.

No! The yes was an answer to your question, "Is this tu quoque?". I just... have deep issues with nested quotations.

I read a memoir of the team doctor for the Raiders, back in the late-80s (Lyle Alzado period) and it was... like, HOW can that not be illegal?? Falsified medical reports, obvious doping, violent disregard for long-term health, neglect, stupidity, and Lyle Alzado to top it all off.

It's really disheartening to realize how easily money overcomes things like scruples, forethought, and laws. In people who stand to profit without losing anything, but also in the people who stand to lose their future earnings potential, health, mental health, and lives. It's kind of staggering.

Are football players pre-disposed to violence?

Well... they're better at it. They can cheerfully take and give hits that would flatten other people. There is the fact that when everyone around you gets whipped up you do too much more quickly -- and they do that all the time. And what steroids do to peoples moods and self-control (along with making you bigger and stronger) certainly ad to the mix. Then toss in all the "rich/athletic/etc. people get cut breaks when the fuck up" factor (hey, we'd all LIKE to lose our shit sometimes...). It's not nothing.

I think the NFL needs to not merely not encourage, but activel DIScourage thuggish behavior. I hate to sound like a fifty year old film strip, but there is something to be said for actively embracing the gentlman athlete and sportsmanship and, well, chivalry.

But see...I thought that was the whole idea. Or perhaps I've watched too many feel-good sportsflicks where the ethic includes some sort of nobility and honor while you 'crush the fuckers.'

Yeah. S'not actually like that at all.

I can't agree because I think modern recruitment is far more commerce oriented than political in nature these days. Who is the biggest, meanest mofo we can get who will kill the other guys, make the fans love him and who can multitask enough to run, catch and WIN. I don't think it matters what color he is, long as the job gets done and the pockets are lined.

The NFL has the draft though, which is different than straight out recruiting, and if you have a lower number, or have traded numbers, you're looking to fill in skills gaps and for players who have potential to grow.

It takes some incredibly disciplined leadership to take the kind of environment soaked in money/fame/entitlement/violence to stop that kind of crap, and that's difficult for some coaches when if they're too authoritative-they're fired for rubbing the owner the wrong way (Yep, Jerry, I'm looking at you) or pissing off too many "star players."

Yes. This.

DJ, it cuts a little close to racism for me, too. I think it's a broader problem than that--the one of entitlement, money and fame.

I got the sense from the expose that I saw that dogfighting is more prevalent in the South. All the video footage and people they interviewed who were involved in it were white, so I assumed they were trying very hard to steer clear of any issue of racism in the piece.

What I can tell you from having two hillbilly uncles that raised chickens for cockfighting is that there is not a racial component in it. Just poverty, violence and stupidity.

I haven't heard much dogfighting down here. In Louisiana, I think they were probably much to useful to be wasted on fighting, and in Texas we have/had cockfighting.