When Ellen shows up again in AHBL2, does she say anything about being in touch with Jo or not?

IIRC, no. Which sent me into a frothing rage. B/c they didn't just write her off the show, that erases her existence. You're telling me the first thing out of someone's mouth wouldn't be to ask about her daughter? And Ash?

I hope I'm wrong and missed it, but I remember being pinged really hard at the time.

I suppose I should thank you for reminding me, but yeah... that's what I suspected.

Digital Spy says that season 4 premieres September 4th.

(The article was mostly about a guest cast member.)

Quick rec for a nice, short Sam and Bobby fic. It's a quiet little piece set not long after the season finale.

Sept. 4?! That's nice and ... almost soon!

That is nice. Very atmospheric, slow and careful character sketches. The way things would be if Dean had died.

Thing is, he didn't just *die*, and I don't think that's how either of them, or both of them, could be. Just me, maybe.

Good point, Bev. That didn't ping me when I was reading it, but that makes sense.

Okay, going to try this again (after this morning's post was eaten by the interbunny).

So, have just mainlined SPN Season 3. I was a little braced for crapitutde, since I'd gathered from my LJ friendslist that a number of people were disenchanted with the show this season, so I confess I was pleasantly surprised. Still enjoying it a lot, still liking my Winchesters enormously (although rather sorry that John is no longer among them).

Things I loved: Dean; Bad Day at Black Rock (one of the funniest things I've seen in AGES - that was some splendid writing and just glorious physical comedy, imho); Dean's Not!Son (Awwww! Such cuteness!); Fairy Tales coming true; The Black Pearl Ghost Ships; Groundhog Day & the return of the Trickster; "GhostFacers!"; Henrikson's revelation; Wee!Dean trying to give Sam a Christmas by stealing presents from the kid down the street; The Evil Christmas God Duo*. (Do love how very much this show continues to dovetail with Giaman's American Gods.)

Things I didn't love: The utter absence of Ellen and Jo; the increasing casualness about redshirts' deaths, and ruthlessness towards the possessed; the increase in casual, vaguely pornographic violence towards women/female monsters, and the sense that the bitches have it coming; the fact that everyone's white - and if by some miracle they aren't, then hugs and puppies are not in their immediate future.

I wondered whether some of the latter flowed inevitably from the fact that it's the two of them against the world, a boys' own adventure...but really, I think that it's just bad writing.

I missed Ellen and Jo quite a lot, and I'm sorry that there were NO other references to them - okay, so sometimes you can't cast an actor because they're not available, but it would give more depth to the 'verse if they'd maintained this awareness of a network of Hunters, and if Dean had the occasional phonecall to check things with Ellen, rather than Bobby - because, sure, her bar is burned, but that's just a place. It would have cost nothing to have that little element of continuity, even if it were just two or three references during the course of the season, but it would have been A Good Thing.

It very much felt that we were only allowed 2 recurring female characters per season, and that Ruby was supposed to be Jo version 2.0 - now with added evil. Which I didn't love. I wouldn't have minded that within a context in which we still had competent, honorable, gutsy human women - but as a substitute, I didn't love that particular change. (Tamara should have been such a one - but instead she was straddling that line between Victim Of The Week and Dumb Bitch Who Has It Coming.) There was more subtlety and meaning to the relationship that the boys had with Jo than to that they had with Ruby - even though they didn't know her well, she was one of the good guys, and they had that messy history with their respective fathers. And of course her UST for Dean, and Sam's recognition of same - and the fact that Dean DIDN'T treat her the way he treats girls. That was an interesting relationship.

With Ruby and Bella, however, we've got a hefty dose of "all women are bitches. Fuckable, but bitches". Even though Ruby didn't end up pulling a doublecross, and was actually pretty damned consistently cool and helpful, she's still an Evil Demon Bitch, so it's okay for Dean to punch her in the face, trap her and leave her to rot. (Let's recall the Bar Tender Demon, who was pretty interesting, and who indicated through her conversation with Dean and, more tellingly, her advocation of mercy when she and Not!Priest had Dean vulnerable before them that demons come in various flavours. And whom Sam shot dead.)

Bella - actually, I quite liked her character arc, and it was at least consistent, and it was nice to have someone who does know all about the magic and monsters, but who isn't philanthropic. But too often they made the boys be incompetent in order to make her look good, and that was annoying. Still, overall I (continued...)

( continues...) liked Bella well enough - it was just that within the context of the season, she did rather feed into the misogynistic tone. Her history with the demon bargain and the hell hounds worked nicely to mirror Dean's problems as well as giving her pretty consistent motivation for her lifestyle. (Oh - and I did enjoy that whole Dean-in-tux-walks-down-the-stairs moment, with the objectification and the "after this, let's have angry sex". That was just delicious.)

I was delighted to see Henrikson back, and enjoyed his eventual mental adjustment (the way he just stood entirely still, processing, rationalizing, adjusting while all around him things were going crazy) and his competence. He was awesome. But I'm gutted that they killed him off at the end - it felt cheap, and needless. The impact would have been just as great if it were simply the survivors in the sheriff's department who got wiped out by Lilith; I really wanted Henrikson to go out and become a Hunter, and I feel like the guy was cheated.

I really thought that the finale was going to have some big eye-opening moment when Sam realised how much he'd changed; when he realised that he'd been gradually corrupted by inches, and was in the process of becoming exactly what Yellow Eyes wanted. I thought he was going to kill the little blonde girl and realise too late that it had been a set-up - that his casualness about the human 'meat puppets' and his ruthlessness had led him to this point. (...er, as I write this I'm getting sudden flashbacks to Revenge of the Sith, with the whole slaughter-of-the-innocents. Um.) I half-way thought we'd discover that Ruby was really Lilith all along, and that she'd been pushing him in this direction. I thought that he'd get back in touch with his Inner Demon, kick Lilith's ass and save Dean from Hell at the cost of his own soul, or something like that.

Turns out I was way off base!

Which rather suggests that the casualness about innocent bloodshed and the brutality towards female figures is not supposed to ping us at all.

Someone was talking about 24 a while ago, and they said how fabulous it would have been if the writers had consciously, intentionally written the show as the gradual creation of a monster; if, over the course of the seasons, Jack Bauer had been shown transforming from the good guy into the bad guy as he crossed line after line after line and became ever more ruthless and morally compromised, until in the end it was clear that HE was the bad guy. The primrose path to Hell, and all that. Well, I had a similar feeling about SPN. Not to the same extent, but it does feel like there's a process of moral decay or something going on. And it's interesting seeing the brothers' interactions, and their motivations, and the ways in which they're self-aware. I was pleasantly surprised by how clear-eyed Dean was about it all as the end drew near - that he was aware they were one another's Achilles' Heels, and that they were getting locked into a cycle of sacrifice.

I am agog to know how the hell they're going to write themselves out of this corner. (Some of the suggestions made in the Spoiler Thread delighted me.)

...also, I sort of want SPN/Hellblazer crossover fic. With comic!John Constantine, for preference.

*I was particularly tickled by the whole business of having meadowsweet in the wreathes. Although meadowsweet may be unusual in whereverthehell the episode was set, it grows wild around my way. And when I was a kid, it was called "Mother Die". Playground lore proclaimed that if you gave it to your mum, she'd die - I was distinctly nervous about including it in bouquets of wildflowers that I'd gathered and handed to my mum. (Dandelions, meanwhile, were known as "Wet the Beds", because of the alleged side effects of picking them. God knows what other things I've forgotten.) Thus I was fascinated by their inclusion of meadowsweet as a marker of who was to be sacrificed - although I think maybe the writers just pulled that out of their asses. Still, it was a bit of a head-go-boom detail for me!

It's so fascinating what impresses you when you mainline a season, rather than imbibing it as weekly doses over a period of months.

I'm glad you enjoyed it, Fay, and you point out many of the same reasons I continue to like the show, despite the problems you also point out. I think those problems are severe, but not fatal, and are thus redeemable. I also tend to believe they happened because of carelessness and inattention rather than deliberate intent. If it had been intentional there would have been some payoff, as you state.

Of course, more than one writer and Kripke himself have said that with the shortened season, they had to focus on one storyline rather than weaving two or more as planned, and felt that Dean's expiration date was the more urgent. So they dealt with that one, and Sam's journey will be addressed in S4. So he still could have that turn to the darkside. I know JP himself hopes that's what happens, because Evil!Sam is fun for him to play.

I'm glad that, despite its obvious shortcomings, you're still enjoying the show. I do hope the producers and writers have taken note of the vocal fan discontent over the attitude toward women and supporting characters in S3, and manage to get S4 back to the regard and respect the show accorded both in S1.