Where the analogy between Buffy's leap and Dean's deal breaks down is that Buffy was giving up her life to save Dawn and the world--or at least this dimension, whereas Dean was giving up not just his life but his soul to reverse something which had already happened.
Factually, I'd say Buffy had by far the higher moral and ethical motivations. Buffy was exhausted, wrung out, used up and ready to go. If we look at post-death, she remembers being at peace, happy to be where she was after she died.
Dean has no real concept of what hell is, or how long eternity is, but as Amy says, he simply can't exist without Sam, or with the guilt of failing to save Sam. He's not saving Sam or the world from what Sam would have become had he accepted the YED's offer, so there's not really any comparison to the other side of the scales for Buffy's act of sacrifice. And rather than following Sam into death, where if there is a hereafter they would be reunited with each other and their parents, Dean makes the decision to bring Sam back, to life. There's nothing to suggest that death for Sam meant hell, and I'd speculate that on merit, that's not where he wound up.
So there's actually little basis for comparison between the two sacrifices. Buffy sacrificed a life she no longer wanted to save her sister, but beyond that, to save the world. And she wound up in "heaven," before she was brought back, we were given to understand, against her will
Dean mortgaged his soul in eternal damnation to ressurect a--as far as we know--peacefully deceased Sam, mostly out of guilt and terror at having failed at his duty.
Nicooooole! Missed you!
And they aired through Houses of the Holy at least before they started at IMToD again.
I'm slowly getting back into talky mode. It's been a hectic month and I think most of my vocabulary allotment for the month of July was used up. We'll see how much is left...
Missed you, too, Bev!
I didn't get to sleep until somewhere around 6am this morning, but I'd love to watch & flail later tonight... if I'm still coherent later.
Must ponder on topic. Need coffee.
John is willing to sacrifice his boys' innocence and freedom in service to his own need for vengeance,
Eh, I'd argue this. John's rationale has a lot to do with protecting his sons from an evil that no one else recognizes. I agree that he sacrificed some of their innocence and their integration into normal society in order to do that, and he clearly told them it was all about vengeance. But if you want to train your sons to protect themselves, you don't tell them about the Big Scary Evil Thing that you suspect is coming to get them; instead you make them the hunters instead.
John had his problems, but I don't think he privileged revenge over protecting his sons.
Eastern time: Amy, Askye, me, anybody else?
Funny you should call yourself chopped liver, when clearly I am the chopped liver. ::cries::
(((Jen))) Sorry, dumpling. I'm old, and in need of more caffeine. You are not chopped liver. I will, however, try to stop calling you food.
So there's actually little basis for comparison between the two sacrifices.
For the most part, I would agree with you and your spicy brains, though I do think both Buffy and Dean were doing the only thing possible for them to do, largely based on what they saw as their duty. Both Buffy and Dean had made it clear before that point that saving their sibling was the one and only thing they really cared about. Buffy was willing to sacrifice the world in her attempt to save Dawn from Glory, even though it went against her training (as represented by Giles), and Dean had made it clear over and over again that protecting Sam was what he did, with everything else, even his own life, coming a far distant second. (Like Buffy, some of Dean's choices, especially choosing John's life over killing the YED, went against his training as represented by John)
Buffy was able to both save Dawn and save the world, and her duty as the slayer wouldn't let her do anything else, but I think she would have done the same if the world was taken out of the equation. Dean didn't have that option, but then his duty had never been to save the world. Instead, it was to protect Sam, to be a good soldier, and then to help as many individuals as he could. Saving the world never entered into it, for Dean.
Nicole! ::hugs you hard::
Where the analogy between Buffy's leap and Dean's deal breaks down is that Buffy was giving up her life to save Dawn and the world--or at least this dimension, whereas Dean was giving up not just his life but his soul to reverse something which had already happened.
Oh, good point.
But if you want to train your sons to protect themselves, you don't tell them about the Big Scary Evil Thing that you suspect is coming to get them; instead you make them the hunters instead.
I'll still argue that he could have done that in one place, especially since his quest for YED branched off time and again into hunts for other demons, and demons that other hunters could have handled. Bobyy = no kids. Caleb = no kids. Pastor Jim = stays in one place even when doing his part.
I get not shielding them from the truth -- especially a lethal, terrifying truth -- but John's need to do the job overshadowed his sons' *other* needs (other being anything not having to do with learning the skills of the hunt), needlessly, I think.
Im my world, even when you're doing good and banishing the bogeyman, you don't leave an eight-year-old alone with a four-year-old and them BLAME HIM when something scary gets in.
And I say this, oddly enough, loving John a lot.
