So when someone (okay, fandom) goes "OMGWTF do you not see what you just did there?!", the writers would probably all look confused and go "But that's not what we meant! Dude, what are you talking about?"

This reminds me of anteka's theories on the Impala as an avatar for Dean's emotional state, and what it meant that Sam never drove in S2. She worked it all out and had a pretty sound theory, IMO.

Then, she was at a con and asked a question about it, and the answer was "Sam doesn't drive because it's Dean's car."

There's a difference between metaphor and misogyny, of course, but I think the concept of group brain is the same.

At the end of the day, you have to write the stories that you think are interesting or compelling. Then you put it out into the world and hope that there are enough people who will also find it interesting or compelling. If there are, great. If not, well, better luck next time.

I totally get that, and it's part of the reason I'm willing to give SPN so much slack for its flaws. But there are times when I would like to see a little glimmer of outside perspective dawn in the SPN writers' collective heads about the dodgy gender and race issues they keep stirring up.

(Of course, I'd also like to see them do more than a 10-second search on Google for their occult and folklore research, but that's my pet soapboax.)

My fear is that outside perspective is what leads to Bionic Woman. (hee)

Okay, I watched the bit where Phoebe!Demon started talking about the "Leader" from the west.

Unfortunately (or possibly purposefully) she garbled what she was saying so I can tell if she said, "This demon, he doesn't like (something something)" or "This demon, it doesn't like. . " but in no way did she say " she " etc. And Lilith is always female? Maybe Lilith isn't the demon rising in the West.

At the end of the day, you have to write the stories that you think are interesting or compelling. Then you put it out into the world and hope that there are enough people who will also find it interesting or compelling.

On the one hand, this is true. On the other hand, when your audience's response is "Dude. Therapy.", then it's appropriate to pause and consider audience feedback. A writer who fails to consider the audience entirely -- or selectively considers, in an echo-chamber, narrow-niche way -- is a writer masturbating to his own psychological problems. And really, aren't there enough Frank Millers on this planet already?

Basically, it used to be funny to call the writers of Supernatural fanfic writers, because they were all cracked-out and OTT-emo. But then I realized that, actually, I hold professional product to a higher standard, and will not tolerate pure id-vortex material in a television show that I would tolerate (or at least politely ignore) in fanfic. When you're writing for millions of viewers, with money at stake, you have to be able to write at a level more complex than "My crazy, let me show you it."

Speaking as a writer, I can say that this is a slippery slope. As soon as you start thinking about how other people will react or interpret your work, you've shot yourself in the foot. Or maybe in the head. Either way, you're handicapping yourself.

Oh, I get that. I have stories I haven't finished because of concerns about audience reaction.

I think, though, that there should perhaps be a basic level of education about the sexist and racist tropes that have been a staple of popular entertainment. A baseline, so that you can merrily go about writing your story without winding up with egg and/or guac all over your face like Vogue just did.

(And yes, I'm still pissed off about BtVS S7.)

That said, one of the most annoying things about the SPN writing team is that they *do* listen to audience but in ways that seem self-defeating. (See also: Jo. Kripke, put down the keyboard, and step away from the TWoP.)

But there are times when I would like to see a little glimmer of outside perspective dawn in the SPN writers' collective heads about the dodgy gender and race issues they keep stirring up.

Totally. Just, you know, pull back from the trees for a second and look at the forest!

That said, one of the most annoying things about the SPN writing team is that they *do* listen to audience but in ways that seem self-defeating. (See also: Jo. Kripke, put down the keyboard, and step away from the TWoP.)

What Plei said. Also, what Nutty said.

I think there's also a middle ground between crippling yourself by second-guessing the story you're writing and sealing yourself away from all outside influence ("you" in this case being a hypothetical person, not Kristen). That is, after all, what editors and betas and test-audiences are for. I don't always get as much beta done as I need: but if I'm at all concerned about response, by golly, I get a wider range of betas than usual.

Because I want to know if part of my audience thinks I'm shitting on them. It's bad writing to do that by accident; and bad television to not know.

That is, after all, what editors and betas and test-audiences are for.

Well, TV doesn't really have those things. There are execs who approve stories and scripts but how useful those notes are can vary greatly. ;-)

Why does "greatly" look so wrong to me? I hate when that happens.

In my brief time on the other side, I've discovered that sometimes people really do know. And they do it anyway. (Not just talking about the misogyny issue here but more things that make your eyes roll in general.) Sometimes, it's because there genuinely is no other option. But other times, it's that this is the story they want to tell and you can go at them until you're blue in the face and it won't make a difference. Both of those situations can be frustrating for different reasons.

Since I don't know the parties involved, I can't speak on if they know or not and if they care or not.

Though I will now give a funny example of an actual "not knowing" moment. On Drive, there had been an idea to do flashbacks of how Alex met and fell in love with his wife. The writers had been in two different rooms so, when we got back together, one of the senior writers told us the planned flashbacks. One of them was Alex and Kathryn's first date and he takes her to this, like, dilapidated greenhouse. (The idea being that he's just bought what will eventually be his landscaping business and wants to share it with her and they have a romantic picnic or something inside the greenhouse.)

So he finishes telling us and I guess that Lauren (story editor) and I had equal looks of horror on our faces. We had to explain to the boys that, if you're a single woman and some guy you just met takes you to ANY kind of abandoned building, you're not going inside. You're running away and calling 911. Otherwise, you might never be seen again.

"You wouldn't think it was romantic?"
"I would think he was a serial killer."

Bwah! that's awesome, Kristen. And a very telling point to make.

More proof that Jim Beaver is awesome.