I'm failing to thinky my own thinky. Hmm. Must think about this.

Me too. I keep trying, but today is a magpie (ooh, shiny over there, no over there, ooh no over there) day.

I'm also listening to Kane, which is All Cass's Fault,

::is chopped liver::

See if I send you links again.

Oh! No, it's Bev's fault, too! I swear!

::snuggles up to Bev and turns up "Spirit Boy"::

Bev has been linkalicious lately.

Family Sacrifice: Compare and Contrast. John Winchester vs. Angel; Dean Winchester vs. Buffy Summers. Discuss!

JOHN VS ANGEL

Both are the leaders of their families, the alphas, if we want to use that terminolgy (which works better for SPN than BtVS or Angel). Both of them separate themselves from their families for their own safety/good -- John when he thinks the YED is too close, too dangerous, and Angel after his choice with the Wolfram and Hart, um, banquet.

John is willing to sacrifice his boys' innocence and freedom in service to his own need for vengeance, but Angel is not, especially at first -- he accepts help from Cordy and Doyle, and then from Wes and Gunn, and later Fred, but he clearly believes that while he is stronger with their help, he should fight alone.

The difference, maybe, is that Angel has guilt that John doesn't have to deal with (John has only been WRONGED, and doesn't realize for years and years that he is wronging his sons in the same way Angelus wronged his own blood kin, and later the scores of innocents who crossed his path, if not quite as violently).

Of course, they both sacrifice the chance of love in service to the cause. John believes his role as part of a pair dies with Mary; Angel believes that love is out of the question (although, for me, there's a helluva lot of handwavium there -- once the curse takes effect and turns him into Angelus, he could never *truly* have another moment of perfect happiness with Buffy, could he, because he would alway be afraid of the consequences, meaning they probably could have been together anyway, but ... sprinkles Handwavium Powder liberally over plot hole).

Of course, the biggest difference is that John is looking for vengeance, while Angel is looking for redemption -- their motives wrt to sacrifice come from entirely different places. Angel sacrifices his own happiness EVERY BLOODY MINUTE, while John never makes a sacrifice that affects HIM personally until he chooses to separate himself from the boys late in S1.

Coming soon! My two cents on Dean vs. Buffy!

(Amy, I did get your e. Real life ate me this week. I will e you back soon. Promise.)

Okay! Don't let real life eat you, babe. Have some cake. And some prtty boys.

Hey, keen!

I confess, I was thinking more specifically (Angel's deal for Connor compared to John's for Dean, and Dean's for Sam vs. Buffy's act for Dawn), but the general, it works, too!

Oh. Oops.

I can think about that, too. I think.

::snuggles Amy back. looks for more links::

Back to reading about the thinky.

Is it a sacrifice if it doesn't hurt?

I mean, okay, it hurts a little, but not the way removing himself from Buffy's life hurt Angel.

When Buffy throws herself into that void, there's nothing she wants -- there are only things she *doesn't* want anymore. She doesn't want to fight anymore, she doesn't want the weight of the world on her shoulders, she doesn't want to make do with ... well, making do, working at some sort of a normal life in between killing vampires and demons.

When Dean makes the deal with the demon, the only thing he wants is to have Sam back. The idea of losing his own life in a year isn't too much to sacrifice, because only one year *with* Sam beats even only one day alone, without him.

They're both selfish in this instance, although you can mitigate that by saying that they're saving their loved ones' lives. Is that a sacrifice then?

I think another difference it what's acceptable to them. I know Buffy loves Dawn, but for her the idea of living after *failure* is part of it, while for Dean (it seems to me) it's as simple as living not being worth it if Sam is gone.