Gimme Shelter hurt a little too much for me. Today at least.

But I agree with Bev. The way the boys were raised wasn't ideal, and it could have gone off the rails a thousand different ways, but John gave them love, family, strength, and as much emotional support as he could. Lots and LOTS of kids have worse, right in the suburbs with an SUV in the driveway and a PlayStation under the Christmas tree.

I think part of it, though, part of the thing that makes the show work so well, is that Dean and Sam had *each other*. An only child in that situation might not have made it through.

askye: Paint it Black, here: [link]

I want to point out that I wasn't judging how John raised the boys one way or the other, just pointing out that it could possibly be a topic of angst and soul-searching for Dean if he ever had a kid while still hunting. An "I'll never raise my kids on the road cuz that's how I was raised" as it compares to a well-adjusted and healed adult declaring "I'll never beat my kids because I was raised by my father's belt"-- that person turned out okay, but wouldn't wish it on their own kids (and then the kids turn out to be soft little pansies--IJS). I could see that kind of thinking then turning down the path of "If I don't wabt to raise my kid that way, does that make my dad a bad parent for having raised me that way?" With an eventual reconciliation of the two concepts.

I see Dean wishing to take on all the burdens upon himself. I can't see him laying that on anyone else, let alone his own child. Knowing the weariness that comes with it, the loneliness. And I don't blame John, reeling from the death of his wife, trying to keep what was left of his family still together while trying to get revenge/justice on what killed her. And I'm sure having his kids still with him kept him from going completely around the bend (wow, kinda like he's portrayed in Gimme Shelter).

it could have gone off the rails a thousand different ways

It could have, and it didn't, and John was lucky. I think it was just as much the Nature of the boys turning out okay as it was John providing the right kind of Nurture. And I agree, Amy, that it was also due in part to the fact that Dean and Sam had each other, and who they were as individuals.

I'm against kids in canon.

That's what we have fic for. TV never does manage kids right. Of course, most the time, neither does fic. But hey! There's more of that, and I can hit the back button.

I'm against kids in canon.

This. I had started to type up all the different ways that having a kid on the show could be handled and how each scenario wouldn't work for me, when I realized that it wasn't my problem, me not being a writer for the show.

I'm against kids in canon.

What about kids in a cannon?

What about kids in a cannon?

If you'd asked me at 3am today...

Nah. Against that, too. Even if the stinkers sometimes decide it's great good fun to wake you up so they can go pretend to take naps on the floor while you're trying to figure out if you can even stand or if you're so tired, you have to collapse.

I'm against kids in canon.

I've kind of liked when they had the wee little Winchesters on the show. wee!Dean making wee!Sammy dinner was all kinds of cute. And added so much character insight because he was so capable. Poor John, I know his heart was in the right place. Poor boys, for all the other reasons.

eta: I'm saving the links to the stories because they sound good.

I've kind of liked when they had the wee little Winchesters on the show

see, that was great, and part of that was because it was a one-shot.

Maybe Dean could be investigating a haunting involving an old girlfriend of his (maybe his first from his sporadic highschool days), or he sees the obit for said girlfriend and finds out some hinky supernatural stuff going on, spirits and stuff. And he finds out that not only did she die, but so did her husband and kid, and something is lingering. There's an evil spirit or demon that killed them and has trapped the spirit of the kid in the house. In the process of hunting the spirit/demon, Dean and Sam discover that the kid was Dean's, and Dean is devestated. Dean kicks the spirit/demon's ass and his kid is free to go off to kiddy heaven. And there is angst.

Angst, damnit!

I'm saving the links to the stories because they sound good.

they're good, but also unsatisfying in that there is so much more to be explored.

That is a wonderful plot bunny, Juliebird.