Rousseau was noble savage. FWTW

I'm mixing my metaphors Frenchie philosophers!c

I think the expectation that the world is going to indulge your whims, and that you can make your own rules all the time, is a dangerous, and ultimately disappointing, one to encourage in your kids.

Yes. This. I was able to pursue my interests IN school and I don't think the educational system is so strict in this country that you can't still think creatively or be passionate about certain subjects. But admittedly, it's been a while since I've been in a school.

So, were these the kids of parents who didn't teach at all or the kids of parents who just waited to see what their kids were interested in?

It varies from parent to parent. The 14 year old I read about didn't read because he said he didn't want to learn so his mother (who'd unschooled all of her kids) didn't push it until he said he wanted to learn. To me, that's taking it a little too far. He did eventually learn to read, at least.

Which isn't exactly what "Indigo children" are about, as far as I know (which is admittedly, like, almost nothing).

Heh. I had a friend here who suggested I read about Indigo Children--she suspected Owen of being one.

So, there isn't a set curriculum but they plan based on what they think that their kids will be interested in?

Not what they think their kids will be interested in, but what the kids express interest in. Have lots of books and educational toys and just stuff around so that the kid will be exposed to lots of stuff, and see where the kid goes.

(I just finished reading How Children Fail by John Holt, so my brain is kind of in this mindspace now.) One thing that Holt mentions is that kids will learn a lot by just being involved in the stuff of everyday adult life. Let the kids see the bills and the budget and whatever, and let them figure out how much things like each additional degree on the thermostat costs. (When my sister and I were around 9 and 12, my mom would let us go through all the coupons and supermarket ads and figure out which brands and which size packages we should buy.)

Holt was a math teacher, so lots of the stuff he wrote focuses more on math than on other stuff.

Holt was a math teacher, so lots of the stuff he wrote focuses more on math than on other stuff.

I think I would have enjoyed math more if I had been exposed to more everyday concepts with it as a young child.

Now that I think about it, a whole lot of just the regular stuff my parents did in interacting with us was stuff that unschoolers advocate. We had a set of encyclopedias in the house, and frequently if I asked a question, the answer was, "Why don't you look it up, and let me know what it says?" Whenever we went out to a restaurant, my parents would hand us the bill to check that it was added up right and to figure out what the tip was. (We may have been the only six-year-olds who could figure out 15% tip in our heads.) When we were cooking or baking, my mom would ask us stuff like, "OK, if I'm supposed to have 3/4 of a cup of flour, but I'm doubling the recipe, how much should I use?" Not in a quizzing way, but just in a "Want to help?" way.

A lot of this drove my teachers nuts, though, when I got to the grade where I was supposed to learn how to add fractions or whatever, and I could do it with no problem, but not at all using the algorithm we were supposed to do it with.

My mother was very much like that too, Hil. She would ask me to read signs on the road, etc. Of course, then she would get annoyed when we would take a two hour car trip and I wouldn't stop reading the signs.

I think I would have enjoyed math more if I had been exposed to more everyday concepts with it as a young child.

This, definitely. I still get traumatized by the thought of having to do math in my head. I think I was in elementary school around the time they started teaching the "New Math" and while I've never known what the heck that meant, based on how it worked out for me, I don't think it was a good idea.

I think I would have enjoyed math more if I had been exposed to more everyday concepts with it as a young child.

Yeah. His argument is that even the word problems in books that are supposed to be more real-world still miss the mark. ("If you have four cupcakes, and are dividing them among three people, what fraction of a cupcake should each person get?" Who the hell cuts cupcakes, especially into slivers that exact? Give the kids a pack of M&Ms, have them figure out what fraction are of each color, you get the same lesson but using stuff the kids can actually relate to. Plus, candy.)

I remember in elementary school we would always make fun of the way that our math textbook would try to make problems seem "interesting" to us. Also, the way that they'd so carefully use names of various ethnicities, to the point where I think we even noticed that one had five different ethnicities they were using, and would just cycle through them in naming word problem kids. Great lesson in pattern recognition, though probably not the one they were going for.

Instead of getting my classwork done for the class that is kicking my ass this weekened when I was supposed to, I had a family dinner, looked at apartments, and watched Drive. Now I have about two hours left to finish up a ton of work. Probably not wise on my part.

Ack! I came to Bitches to get away from schooly thought for tonight. Othe fuck well; good thing I do love it.

I've read some stuff on unschooling, and like others have said upthread, it can be a good thing or a bad thing. Like every educational system, it depends on how it's done, by whom, and by the child involved. I love the practice of involving kids in all of the day-to-day tasks of everyday life, and having them follow their interests, but the kids who just didn't feel like learning to read?

No. You know, some days I don't FEEL like doing a lot of shit, like feeding the cats or making money or brushing my teeth, but if I don't do it, bad shit happens,like death and moldering felines, and eviction and, you know, TOOTHLESSNESS.

Some shit ya gotta learn.

And the noble savage? BWAH! Kids can be evil, stupid little fuckers. They can also be little shining gems of altruism. Usually in the same hour.

See, the concept of "follow the child" is one that I absolutely subscribe to, as well as practical application of academic concepts. As people have implied, if not said, the Devil really is in the details.